Actual expenses lower than 'national standards'

[keepsmiling]

Does that payment include your taxes?
You are lucky to be in a debtor-friendly state.
Have you spoken to any attorneys lately? Are you being sued? What's your story? The more info you share, the more help we can give.
You haven't posted in quite a while, but I do hope you've been reading here. So much good info. No reason to get stuck for 5 years if you don't have to.

[Pizza]

Suppose you were to buy a new car. And get health insurance.
Would that put you in CH7 territory?
Watch out for your family FIRST.

That sounds quite possible.

I read a couple of places during my Googling that generally the ability to file chapter 7 is available to those who are at 120% of the median, when calculating certain allowable expenses and adding a few that the law allows. Of course that's preferential to most people, including us. The largest hindrance to that plan in my case is probably the $680 mortgage. But good luck finding another home that costs that little for 4 bedrooms, 2 bath and an office. It's also very old - so if there was a way to include 'anticipated' repairs that would work out great, but everything I have found on that sounds a little vague.

[keepsmiling]

Suppose you were to buy a new car. And get health insurance.
Would that put you in CH7 territory?
Watch out for your family FIRST.

[Pizza]

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...anstesting.htm

Great link. I need to bookmark it.

[Pizza]

You may want to get a quote for replacement, or consider replacing prior to filing.

That's probably a good idea.

Looks like you've been around a long time. Have you been paying all your unsecureds all this time? You asked earlier if you had to continue living like a pauper post filing. The answer is NO. If you've been paying all of your unsecureds all this time, could be it's time to stop and start living on a slightly higher standard. DO YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE???? That's an important factor.

That's probably true as well. We had gotten in the habit of going without for so long. I have gone without health insurance between jobs. In the past couple of years I have probably gotten under $100 of new clothes and maybe two or three pairs of shoes. Patched the knees, kept the old shoes for mowing/yardwork, got off-brand everything, used coupons, got second-hand stuff... heck the laptop I'm typing on has a USB keyboard attached because I didn't want to pay to fix the built-in keyboard when it broke.

Spending like many do just doesn't even seem natural to me anymore. Maybe I should be more creative when coming up with expenses.

[keepsmiling]

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/20120501/meanstesting.htm

[Pizza]

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...esting.htm---- I think it's all pretty much lumped together

That link didn't work ('Error' page)

Probably not true in TX, where the a/c is likely to cost more than the heat, and the water bill could be much higher as well

Depends on how you heat and cool it. We heat with natural gas/space heaters and cool with window units. It's MUCH cheaper that way than using central, at least in older homes. We also use the cheapest electrical provider as Texas is deregulated. The water bill fluctuates but is generally around $85 a month.

[keepsmiling]

Hmm. Well in reality there's always SOMETHING that could fail when you own a home - the water heater, the electrical, the a/c... Can I factor in any of those things? Most of them are very old. The water heater is almost as old as I am.

You may want to get a quote for replacement, or consider replacing prior to filing.
Looks like you've been around a long time. Have you been paying all your unsecureds all this time? You asked earlier if you had to continue living like a pauper post filing. The answer is NO. If you've been paying all of your unsecureds all this time, could be it's time to stop and start living on a slightly higher standard. DO YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE???? That's an important factor.

[keepsmiling]

This is where it seems to get tricky:



Okay, so we use ACTUAL numbers for mortgage payments and STANDARDS for housing related expenses (such as maintenance, electricity and water)? If so, where can I find those standards?

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...esting.htm---- I think it's all pretty much lumped together

But if you are filing in the summer/ fall , your utility costs are less than the costs in the winter, your checking account will not show that. Our attorney said that the only things needed are the last 60 days income , your last 2 years Federal Tax Returns and of course your ss card , driver license and proof of your plan payments

Probably not true in TX, where the a/c is likely to cost more than the heat, and the water bill could be much higher as well

[Pizza]

This is where it seems to get tricky:

Arbitrary Expenses
(1) National Standards for food, clothing and services, housekeeping supplies, personal care products and miscellaneous items based upon the size of your household and your CMI.
(2) Local Standards for housing and utilities based upon family size and county of residence.
(3) Local Standards for transportation expenses, based on the region of the country where you reside, for Ownership Costs and Operating Costs/Public Transportation Costs
(4) Other Necessary Expenses (these are actual expenses) for, among other things, child care, court-ordered payments such as alimony and support, necessary medical and dental expenses, income taxes (including withholding), involuntary deductions from wages (union dues, uniforms, etc.) term life insurance, and a few others.

Actual Expenses
(Your bankruptcy lawyer will explain added stipulations regarding these actual expenses.)

Health insurance
Average monthly payment on secured debts (mortgage, car loan, etc.)
Child Support
Public or Private school expenses for children under 18 up to $1500/yr
Charitable and religious contributions
Expenses to protect debtor and family from domestic violence
Payments required to catch up on past due payments on secured debts
Costs for continued care of the elderly, ill or disabled family members
Chapter 13 administrative expenses

Okay, so we use ACTUAL numbers for mortgage payments and STANDARDS for housing related expenses (such as maintenance, electricity and water)? If so, where can I find those standards?

[Pizza]

That's fine. If we can afford to repay our debts then we should. I'll look at the schedules closely to see how it all works.

[HHM]

But does the trustee actually ask you to verify these costs or do their staffs verify. In other words do they ask for your utility bills, phone bills if they are reasonable etc. Everyone I asked stated they were never asked to show them. One person said he was asked to show his gasoline usage so he started picking up reciepts at gas stations

Verification is not really the issue, Schedule J is the Schedule of Current (actual) Expenses and is a sworn document. The main problem with the OP's situation is the low mortgage. If your mortgage payment is only $680 per month, you cannot list a higher amount.

[Pizza]

Don't forget home maintenance falls under this category as well.

I agree with KS about lowering insurance deductibles and purchasing a car.

Hmm. Well in reality there's always SOMETHING that could fail when you own a home - the water heater, the electrical, the a/c... Can I factor in any of those things? Most of them are very old. The water heater is almost as old as I am.

[Pizza]

If actual expenses are lower, especially in categories that have easy paper trails (mortgage, utilities, car payment etc), you, as the debtor get screwed. Your budget will be partially determined by your "actual" expenses. Sorry.

I was afraid of that. Oh well.

How does the trustee deal with fluctuating expenses, such as electricity and water? Do you take all of your bills for a year and average them out to get an exact number?

How about the food and clothing expenses? Do they want receipts?

Are you allowed to add more to your budget than you would spend while you were living like a pauper before filing? Like going without health insurance or buying cheap food and second hand clothes?

[magic13]

But if you are filing in the summer/ fall , your utility costs are less than the costs in the winter, your checking account will not show that. Our attorney said that the only things needed are the last 60 days income , your last 2 years Federal Tax Returns and of course your ss card , driver license and proof of your plan payments