family member giving money

[razorguns]

The Trustee *does* have authority to subpoena your brother. He can request records, call him in for a deposition, place him under oath, and ask questions.

*******

lol. And how will the trustee know this info in the first place? Think the trustee's even have the budget for a trial over $50 (yes federal courts will bill their agency for it)??

If al youre concerned if the 'under oath' part then :

The whole bk process takes 4 months if it's run of the mill. If one can't survive at all w/o loans, money from family - then clearly they are deserving of bk and should have no problem admitting if a family member is helping them out.

For ex: My income for past 6 months was $0. Even if Uncle Joe gave me $10k, it wouldn't have mattered.

If not - they should wait until discharge. Ain't that far ahead.

r

[Interlaw]

all incorrect.

The trustee has no legal right to investigate the brother. Privacy rights. We're protected freedoms from the Govt snooping on us w/o our knowledge.

I can't picture any trustee arguing over $50. That seems silly and any lawyer could fight that.

An angry brother calling a trustee is a very very slim reality. Now if u said ex-gf/wife, maybe.

I'm not talking a huge amount of cash like $50,000 to pay for your mortgage.

One guy i know got bk - yet has 2 houses in Canada, and lotsa money in can. bank accounts. Trustee's have no legal jurisdiction to subpoening international asset information. Legal loophole.

You only get grilled if something is suspicius in your paperwork. Which is why you need to get a lawyer to ensure everything looks hunky dorky. If not - THAT'S where they get you.

Scaring people about bk is counter-productive.

r

Boy, where to start.

The Trustee *does* have authority to subpoena your brother. He can request records, call him in for a deposition, place him under oath, and ask questions.

The issue isn't the dollar amount at issue, but whether the Trustee thinks you are lying or hiding something. If you'll lie about $50, you're probably lying about much bigger things. Most Trustees would assume that they'll find something more productive if they just dig. And others may just get PO'd that you're doing this, and make you jump through lots of hoops just to show they can.

Trustees can investigate, and sell, foreign assets. I've had it happen to clients of mine (and they knew it was likely before they filed).

As far as scaring people about bankruptcy, so long as you tell the truth and have a decent lawyer, you'll be fine. OTOH, if you lie, all bets are off.

Brett Weiss
[email protected]

https://www.brettweiss.com/bankruptcy

Maryland, DC and Federal bars
Member, National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys

--> Read our Bankruptcy FAQ at www.brettweiss.com/bankruptcy/FAQ/br_faq.htmwww.brettweiss.com/faq/br_faq.htm.

************************************************** ***************
The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the
facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************

[razorguns]

Razor, I don't think some trustees will care about $50 either. The point is if you lie about something so small then the trustee will investigate you thoroughly and this will complicate your case. Many of us want this over sooner rather then later. Even if they find nothing no one wants to be investigated and have their case open for 6 months or more over a $50 lie.

No one said lie. but there are ways to maneuver things so they're still legal. Kinda like how you play with your taxes to get the biggest tax refund possible. Same thing. Same govt.

as example, Before bk, my gf bought all my expensive meals.
r

[SinkingFast]

Couldn't the mom just pay the payment out of her own funds? Then it's not traced back to your pockets anyways.

We were in a similar situation with selling our house out from under Foreclosure.

When the pay-off came in, we were over $2K short. $2K+ in funds we'd have to take to the table to sell the house. All the penalties and lates and legal fees had added in excess of $8K to our pay-off. Family members "volunteered" to pay the difference just so we could sell the house.

We called our attny to get his advice on how to approach this whole deal. Our attny said to have the family pay the Title Company direct. Not to have that money pass thru our hands or our bank acct. AND to get a Gift Letter so there was no question this was indeed a GIFT and not a LOAN.

We weren't comfortable with the whole deal so we opted not to do it. It just wasn't right to pay that much money to sell the house when we could easily discharge the debt in BK.

We went back to the Realtors and said "NO DEAL". The Realtors worked it out. They took commissions cuts and the Buyers came up in price to pull the deal together.

If family or friends or whoever pays to bring the mortgage current, have them pay the Lender direct themselves. And, get a Gift letter stating the money was just that. A Gift. There is no intent or expectation of the money being paid back.

[BassBoy]

Couldn't the mom just pay the payment out of her own funds? Then it's not traced back to your pockets anyways.

That's the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION.

[miss puff]

Couldn't the mom just pay the payment out of her own funds? Then it's not traced back to your pockets anyways.

[BassBoy]

Hmmm....I guess we can make assumptions about what could or could not happen. Point is, no one really knows. But I can agree with those of you that say that lying/hiding something so small can create one LARGE headache.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Razor, I don't think some trustees will care about $50 either. The point is if you lie about something so small then the trustee will investigate you thoroughly and this will complicate your case. Many of us want this over sooner rather then later. Even if they find nothing no one wants to be investigated and have their case open for 6 months or more over a $50 lie.

[razorguns]

You're missing his point.... again.

Yes, we've all heard stories of people who have gotten away with just about everything. He's not denying that. He's just saying that you CAN get cought if you get a trustee who is more conscientious than most. He didn't say anything about the trustee investigating your brother, he was talking about ways that the trustee could become aware of your little windfall... like the executor of your freshly dead brothers estate knowing you're in BK and knowing that you just got $50k from the estate and him calling the Trustee... and YES this is legal. In this instance that executor would not be acting as a representative of the court he would be acting as a private citizen who is reporting on a possible crime.

All the things that Interlaw has mentioned are things that CAN happen... not WILL happen, just can. you may get away with it... you even PROBABLY could get away with it. You just can't say that you WILL get away with it.

Hell, I could probably plan out a convenience store robbery and get away with it. That doesn't make it legal and it doesn't make it a sure thing that I'm not going to get cought.

Quite aside from the right or wrong aspect of this, really what you'd need to do is decide for yourself if it's worth it IF you do get cought and if you would feel OK lying about it.... because if you have that $1000 in your pocket and you say nothing... you're lying about it because the paperwork in the trustees hand says that you have $0 in your pocket.

What _I_ would do is talk to my attorney about ways that my Mom could LEGALLY help me with my mortgage. Who knows, maybe the Trustee would allow you to take out a loan with your mom to keep the house. Tell them that your mom has offered to catch up your mortgage payments but only if she can write the check directly to the mortgage company... and thus that money can't be given to anyone else. I don't know if this would work... but hey, it's definitely not illegal to ask.

You're coming up with a lot of 'what ifs'. Yeah, i guess u could also win the lottery tomorrow too.

Using your logic, u could go to the casino the day b4 341, win $50, and boom - the trustee could kick you out of bk.

Trustee, like the federal govt, can only investigate you so much w/o infringing on civil liberties. Trustees know this well. They have rules you know.

Your family member can just pay some of your bills instead of giving you $1000 or give it to you after the discharge. All this is semantics.

r

[LostOne0069]

all incorrect.

The trustee has no legal right to investigate the brother. Privacy rights. We're protected freedoms from the Govt snooping on us w/o our knowledge.

I can't picture any trustee arguing over $50. That seems silly and any lawyer could fight that.

An angry brother calling a trustee is a very very slim reality. Now if u said ex-gf/wife, maybe.

I'm not talking a huge amount of cash like $50,000 to pay for your mortgage.

One guy i know got bk - yet has 2 houses in Canada, and lotsa money in can. bank accounts. Trustee's have no legal jurisdiction to subpoening international asset information. Legal loophole.

You only get grilled if something is suspicius in your paperwork. Which is why you need to get a lawyer to ensure everything looks hunky dorky. If not - THAT'S where they get you.

Scaring people about bk is counter-productive.

r

You're missing his point.... again.

Yes, we've all heard stories of people who have gotten away with just about everything. He's not denying that. He's just saying that you CAN get cought if you get a trustee who is more conscientious than most. He didn't say anything about the trustee investigating your brother, he was talking about ways that the trustee could become aware of your little windfall... like the executor of your freshly dead brothers estate knowing you're in BK and knowing that you just got $50k from the estate and him calling the Trustee... and YES this is legal. In this instance that executor would not be acting as a representative of the court he would be acting as a private citizen who is reporting on a possible crime.

All the things that Interlaw has mentioned are things that CAN happen... not WILL happen, just can. you may get away with it... you even PROBABLY could get away with it. You just can't say that you WILL get away with it.

Hell, I could probably plan out a convenience store robbery and get away with it. That doesn't make it legal and it doesn't make it a sure thing that I'm not going to get cought.

Quite aside from the right or wrong aspect of this, really what you'd need to do is decide for yourself if it's worth it IF you do get cought and if you would feel OK lying about it.... because if you have that $1000 in your pocket and you say nothing... you're lying about it because the paperwork in the trustees hand says that you have $0 in your pocket.

What _I_ would do is talk to my attorney about ways that my Mom could LEGALLY help me with my mortgage. Who knows, maybe the Trustee would allow you to take out a loan with your mom to keep the house. Tell them that your mom has offered to catch up your mortgage payments but only if she can write the check directly to the mortgage company... and thus that money can't be given to anyone else. I don't know if this would work... but hey, it's definitely not illegal to ask.

[razorguns]

Your brother dies, and the executor sees a $1,000 withdrawal, investigates what happened to the money, knows you are in BR, and calls the trustee to ask whether you got it.

You have a falling out with your brother, and he calls the trustee to cause you problems.

You and your wife/girlfriend have a falling out, and she calls the trustee to cause you problems.

The US Trustee audits your case, and asks you specific questions under oath on where you got the money to pay the mortgage, since the bank records they subpoenaed don't show sufficient funds to pay it.

What will you do when confronted with this, and you're under oath? Lie?

all incorrect.

The trustee has no legal right to investigate the brother. Privacy rights. We're protected freedoms from the Govt snooping on us w/o our knowledge.

I can't picture any trustee arguing over $50. That seems silly and any lawyer could fight that.

An angry brother calling a trustee is a very very slim reality. Now if u said ex-gf/wife, maybe.

I'm not talking a huge amount of cash like $50,000 to pay for your mortgage.

One guy i know got bk - yet has 2 houses in Canada, and lotsa money in can. bank accounts. Trustee's have no legal jurisdiction to subpoening international asset information. Legal loophole.

You only get grilled if something is suspicius in your paperwork. Which is why you need to get a lawyer to ensure everything looks hunky dorky. If not - THAT'S where they get you.

Scaring people about bk is counter-productive.

r

[FoolAndHisMoney]

I go with interlaw.


In bankruptcy no issue is too small. Every asset, every debt, every creditor, all income, no matter how small seems to matter. Some trustees don't care about the small stuff but you must assume they all care.

[Interlaw]

you sure over-estimate trustees. I've been to 341 and they ask almost little.

Fine, a gift not a loan. With no paperwork, court's could never prove it anyways - so perjury is out.

My brother gives me $1000 cash in my pocket b4 i go into a 341 meeting. Explain to me how that's traceable. It falls out while i'm talking?

r

You've been before one trustee. There are thousands over the country. Some are sharp and some aren't. Some agressive and others aren't. And the US Trustee audits cases--and they certainly aren't soft. I know some Trustees who will threaten to sue you over $50 just to have you pay it to make him go away.

As far as how it's traceable, here are four possibilities:

Your brother dies, and the executor sees a $1,000 withdrawal, investigates what happened to the money, knows you are in BR, and calls the trustee to ask whether you got it.

You have a falling out with your brother, and he calls the trustee to cause you problems.

You and your wife/girlfriend have a falling out, and she calls the trustee to cause you problems.

The US Trustee audits your case, and asks you specific questions under oath on where you got the money to pay the mortgage, since the bank records they subpoenaed don't show sufficient funds to pay it.

What will you do when confronted with this, and you're under oath? Lie?

Brett Weiss
[email protected]

https://www.brettweiss.com/bankruptcy

Maryland, DC and Federal bars
Member, National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys

--> Read our Bankruptcy FAQ at www.brettweiss.com/bankruptcy/FAQ/br_faq.htmwww.brettweiss.com/faq/br_faq.htm.

************************************************** ***************
The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the
facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************

[razorguns]

Cash or check doesn't matter. You are asked questions under perjury about loans. If you deny it, then (1) you're committing perjury; and (2) you're potentially opening yourself up for criminal prosecution for bankruptcy fraud, risk losing your bankruptcy, etc. Cash from your parents isn't traceless, and I can think of at least 3 easy ways the Trustee could find out that you lied about it if not disclosed.

you sure over-estimate trustees. I've been to 341 and they ask almost little.

Fine, a gift not a loan. With no paperwork, court's could never prove it anyways - so perjury is out.

My brother gives me $1000 cash in my pocket b4 i go into a 341 meeting. Explain to me how that's traceable. It falls out while i'm talking?

r

[Interlaw]

Cash or check doesn't matter. You are asked questions under perjury about loans. If you deny it, then (1) you're committing perjury; and (2) you're potentially opening yourself up for criminal prosecution for bankruptcy fraud, risk losing your bankruptcy, etc. Cash from your parents isn't traceless, and I can think of at least 3 easy ways the Trustee could find out that you lied about it if not disclosed.

Why risk it?

Brett Weiss
[email protected]

https://www.brettweiss.com/bankruptcy

Maryland, DC and Federal bars
Member, National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys

--> Read our Bankruptcy FAQ at www.brettweiss.com/bankruptcy/FAQ/br_faq.htmwww.brettweiss.com/faq/br_faq.htm.

************************************************** ***************
The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only.
It isn't meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as
such. If you want legal advice, speak with a local lawyer
familiar with your state's laws who can review *all* of the
facts and the law applicable to your situation.
************************************************** ***************