Need your opinions...

[annamollie]

My case was filed on 3/14 and for some reason my lawyer listed more in my checking and savings accounts than I actually had. I called to ask about it and all they said was that if I actually had less, then it would be okay. Is that true? If the trustee looks at my bank statements, won't he ask where the money went?

Edited to add: It wasn't a significant amount of money. Just about $1000 in each account. I'm in MI and I know I have enough exemptions to cover everything. I'm just concerned about the discrepancies.

[happycarl]

I would be concerned about that, for sure.

At your 341 meeting, you will raise your hand and swear under oath to tell the truth, one of the questions you will be asked if everything is correct and accurate on your schedules. If you answer "Yes" when you know the answer is "No" then you have committed PERJURY and that is a FELONY CRIMINAL OFFENSE as well as a reason to deny you a discharge.

I would call my attorney back and inform him or her that I WOULD NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES DO THAT and that I would testify that I had informed my attorney PRIOR TO THE 341 MEETING.

I bet that will get you an amended schedule filed and tell your attorney YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF PAYING ANY ADDITIONAL FEES FOR THEIR SCREWUP.

[SinkingFast]

It really doesn't matter unless you needed some Exemption $$$'s elsewhere.

We went to review and sign our Petition one day. It was actually filed a couple days later due to correction of some minor errors. Our attny filed our Petition with the first $$$ amount in our Bank Acct. By the time our Petition was actually filed, a Debit cleared and the $$$ amount was lower.

It's really just to be sure your bank acct is covered. If you were tight on Exemptions and could use some $$$'s elsewhere, it could make a difference in that situation. If not, then it's really sort of a formality. The Court does realize that bank accts are dynamic and subject to slight changes.

[happycarl]

It really doesn't matter unless you needed some Exemption $$$'s elsewhere.

We went to review and sign our Petition one day. It was actually filed a couple days later due to correction of some minor errors. Our attny filed our Petition with the first $$$ amount in our Bank Acct. By the time our Petition was actually filed, a Debit cleared and the $$$ amount was lower.

It's really just to be sure your bank acct is covered. If you were tight on Exemptions and could use some $$$'s elsewhere, it could make a difference in that situation. If not, then it's really sort of a formality. The Court does realize that bank accts are dynamic and subject to slight changes.

Your not suggesting that this person LIE UNDER OATH, are you?

[SinkingFast]

The day we met with our attny, our bank balance was $78.81. The next day, a Debit cleared bringing our balance down to $17.85, which is what it was on the day we actually filed. Our petition read $78.81 in our Bank Acct for Exemption purposes.

Yes the Petition is supposed to be, as accurate as possible, a reflection of the Debtor's financial affairs at the time of filing. But if you want to go down to THE PENNY on the bank balance, then you should list each and every sock, shoe, and pair of panties you own.

You're making a "Letter of the Law" argument in a "Spirit of the Law" instance.

As long as the $$$ amount listed is close to what was actually in the bank at the time of filing, demanding the Petition be amended is a bit of overkill. The attny could list one amount for the bank balance and by the time the Court computer picks up the filing, another Debit could clear making the amount inaccurate again.

Our attny had us print out our Bank Statement on the day our Petition was actually filed and bring it to our 341 to be submitted to the Court with our other documents. Nothing was ever said about the difference in the 2 amounts. Our attny and the Trustee have both been doing this for nearly 30 years.

[happycarl]

The day we met with our attny, our bank balance was $78.81. The next day, a Debit cleared bringing our balance down to $17.85, which is what it was on the day we actually filed. Our petition read $78.81 in our Bank Acct for Exemption purposes.

Yes the Petition is supposed to be, as accurate as possible, a reflection of the Debtor's financial affairs at the time of filing. But if you want to go down to THE PENNY on the bank balance, then you should list each and every sock, shoe, and pair of panties you own.

You're making a "Letter of the Law" argument in a "Spirit of the Law" instance.

As long as the $$$ amount listed is close to what was actually in the bank at the time of filing, demanding the Petition be amended is a bit of overkill. The attny could list one amount for the bank balance and by the time the Court computer picks up the filing, another Debit could clear making the amount inaccurate again.

Our attny had us print out our Bank Statement on the day our Petition was actually filed and bring it to our 341 to be submitted to the Court with our other documents. Nothing was ever said about the difference in the 2 amounts. Our attny and the Trustee have both been doing this for nearly 30 years.

Agreed, but would you feel good about advocating that a $1000.00 DOLLAR DIFFERENCE IN TWO ACCOUNTS was simply an accounting discrepancy? If I read the posting correctly, the day the petition was prepared from the information that was provided, THE ATTORNEY made those TWO LISTING ERRORS.

I wouldn't take the chance, if it were me. But then again, I had in excess of $165,000.00 worth of debt to be discharged in my bankruptcy and THANK GOD IT WAS.

[SinkingFast]

Agreed, but would you feel good about advocating that a $1000.00 DOLLAR DIFFERENCE IN TWO ACCOUNTS was simply an accounting discrepancy? If I read the posting correctly, the day the petition was prepared from the information that was provided, THE ATTORNEY made those TWO LISTING ERRORS.

I wouldn't take the chance, if it were me. But then again, I had in excess of $165,000.00 worth of debt to be discharged in my bankruptcy and THANK GOD IT WAS.

The OP said their attny stated $1K in each acct on the Petition. The OP never said what the actual balance of either acct was. Just that $1K was not the correct figure for each acct. OP said the balances were less than the amount listed on the Petition.

We don't know, at this point, exactly what the difference was. Could be, the OP had $950 in each acct. Still a minor difference and best to err on the high side with Exemptions. UNLESS the extra $100 could have been used elsewhere. Which sounds like not. OP said they were fine on Exemptions.

[happycarl]

My case was filed on 3/14 and for some reason my lawyer listed more in my checking and savings accounts than I actually had. I called to ask about it and all they said was that if I actually had less, then it would be okay. Is that true? If the trustee looks at my bank statements, won't he ask where the money went?

Edited to add: It wasn't a significant amount of money. Just about $1000 in each account. I'm in MI and I know I have enough exemptions to cover everything. I'm just concerned about the discrepancies.

Sinkingfast

Am I reading this wrong, I have highlighted what I am concerned about.

I read that edited part to say that it wasn't a significant amount of money DIFFERENCE, just about $1000 in each account?

[annamollie]

But then again, I had in excess of $165,000.00 worth of debt to be discharged in my bankruptcy and THANK GOD IT WAS.

LOL! Yes, Thank GOD! Let's hope he looks down with fondness upon me when my time comes.

Thanks for your responses you guys. Let me try to clear this up so you can have a better picture. HC is correct, I meant that it was $1000 difference...not the actual balances. BUT now that I actually looked at my bank books, even I was off...here are the actual balances.

Savings: $2177. He put $3000.
Checking: $391. He put $2500.

The attorney took my info about a week before he actually filed. I wasn't sure he should be doing that because I thought it had to be exact, but when I asked he just said it would be okay. I'm new to this, so I'm not really sure what to believe.

I do understand what you are saying HC, but I was thinking along the lines of what SF said because I'm not tight on exemptions and I had assumed the attorney was just trying to cover the accounts.

[annamollie]

I should also say that the attorney was addressing my bills when he put in those amounts. He was averaging out what my bills are every month. I made sure to tell him that my house payment would be coming out of checking within a few days. He didn't seem bothered. So, like you said SF, the debit cleared before he had a chance to file. Everything shows on my bank statements, so I would hope it should be clear enough to the trustee where my money goes.

Like I said, I did try to call my attorney about this. I spoke with a different attorney and he said that as long as the balances don't go over, then I'm okay. But I've seen enough attorneys to know how most of them are...that's why I'm here. You guys are so much more trustworthy to me.

[happycarl]

LOL! Yes, Thank GOD! Let's hope he looks down with fondness upon me when my time comes.

Thanks for your responses you guys. Let me try to clear this up so you can have a better picture. HC is correct, I meant that it was $1000 difference...not the actual balances. BUT now that I actually looked at my bank books, even I was off...here are the actual balances.

Savings: $2177. He put $3000.
Checking: $391. He put $2500.

The attorney took my info about a week before he actually filed. I wasn't sure he should be doing that because I thought it had to be exact, but when I asked he just said it would be okay. I'm new to this, so I'm not really sure what to believe.

I do understand what you are saying HC, but I was thinking along the lines of what SF said because I'm not tight on exemptions and I had assumed the attorney was just trying to cover the accounts.

OK, So that is a $823 difference in savings added in and $2108 difference in checking added in. He showed an increase of $2931.00 MORE than you actually had.

I would be concerned with that if it were me.

Whatever you do, DO NOT, DO NOT LIE UNDER OATH. IF your attorney EVEN HINTS that you should, RUN DON'T WALK AWAY FROM HIM OR HER.

[annamollie]

I am concerned. That's why I'm here. And don't worry...I WILL NOT LIE UNDER OATH.

Let me say this also and see if it makes a difference. I'm filing individually, so considering that... He states that only $1500 from savings needs to be exempted since the other half is considered to be my husband's. Does that sound appropriate?

Now, where does this leave me? Should I have him make an amendment? What if he gives me the same old line? That everything will be "okay." How can I make this right?

[happycarl]

I am concerned. That's why I'm here. And don't worry...I WILL NOT LIE UNDER OATH.

Let me say this also and see if it makes a difference. I'm filing individually, so considering that... He states that only $1500 from savings needs to be exempted since the other half is considered to be my husband's. Does that sound appropriate?

Now, where does this leave me? Should I have him make an amendment? What if he gives me the same old line? That everything will be "okay." How can I make this right?

Actually that does sound right, we live in Texas. My partner and his mother had a stock account, it had a value of $18,875.00 on date of filing, it was JOINT TENANTS WITH RIGHT OF SURVIVORSHIP. The attorney listed the full value and only exempted half of it. We complained since only HALF of it belonged to my partner, he AMENDED the paperwork to reflect that 1/2 ownership of my partner and his entire half was exempt and the mother's half was not included. The reason this is important is because we were going to and DID sell the stock and liquidate into cash. With getting the paperwork right, we kept the cash LEGALLY, as his mother made him a GIFT of her half MONTHS after he filed his Chapter 13 proceeding.

Also with making sure the paperwork was right, ALL OF HIS PROPERTY WAS EXEMPT and that left us free to do with it as we wished during the course of his Chapter 13.

Your attorney should go over with you what will be asked in the 341 meeting. When you get there, listen very carefully to the questions and answer them fully and truthfully and you should be fine.

[SinkingFast]

Actually that does sound right, we live in Texas. My partner and his mother had a stock account, it had a value of $18,875.00 on date of filing, it was JOINT TENANTS WITH RIGHT OF SURVIVORSHIP. The attorney listed the full value and only exempted half of it. We complained since only HALF of it belonged to my partner, he AMENDED the paperwork to reflect that 1/2 ownership of my partner and his entire half was exempt and the mother's half was not included. The reason this is important is because we were going to and DID sell the stock and liquidate into cash. With getting the paperwork right, we kept the cash LEGALLY, as his mother made him a GIFT of her half MONTHS after he filed his Chapter 13 proceeding.

Also with making sure the paperwork was right, ALL OF HIS PROPERTY WAS EXEMPT and that left us free to do with it as we wished during the course of his Chapter 13.

Your attorney should go over with you what will be asked in the 341 meeting. When you get there, listen very carefully to the questions and answer them fully and truthfully and you should be fine.

Did your partner tell the Trustee about his/her Mother's cash gift to him/her after he/she was in an active Ch 13 Payment Plan??!!

If not, then your partner should. That gift is income that could be seized by the Trustee "for the benefit of your partner's Creditors". Unless your partner is already in a 100% payback Plan. Even then, the Trustee could take the money and shorten the term of the Plan.

It would be the same if your partner had filed a Ch 7 and received the funds within the 180 day window post filing. Again, the monies could be taken for the benefit of the Debtor/Filer's Creditors.

Anna,.......... Attnys have any number of reasons for completing Petitions and Schedules the way they do.

Could be, based on your previous income tax returns you submitted,....... Your attny might have thought you might have a significant refund coming. He/She could have applied your Exemptions the way he/she did to allow for Direct Deposit of your refund that might be coming.

Perhaps you were filing right around payday. Your attny could have been allowing for your or your Hubby's paycheck to flow into your acct during that time.

There are any number of reasonable explanations for an attny allowing for more funds than are actually present the day the figures are given.

We were tight on Exemptions so our attny listed exactly what was in our acct the day we went to review and sign our Petition. Our Petition was actually submitted 2 days later, and, as I said before, an approx $60 Debit cleared. Our printed Bank Statement submitted by our attny to our Trustee at our 341 did not match our Petition and nothing was said.

Granted, our difference was not as sizable as yours, but the Trustees and attnys work together very well, generally speaking. The attnys know what the Trustees will and won't accept. If you're being told not to worry about it then it should be fine.

[happycarl]

Did your partner tell the Trustee about his/her Mother's cash gift to him/her after he/she was in an active Ch 13 Payment Plan??!!

If not, then your partner should. That gift is income that could be seized by the Trustee "for the benefit of your partner's Creditors". Unless your partner is already in a 100% payback Plan. Even then, the Trustee could take the money and shorten the term of the Plan.

It would be the same if your partner had filed a Ch 7 and received the funds within the 180 day window post filing. Again, the monies could be taken for the benefit of the Debtor/Filer's Creditors.

Anna,.......... Attnys have any number of reasons for completing Petitions and Schedules the way they do.

Could be, based on your previous income tax returns you submitted,....... Your attny might have thought you might have a significant refund coming. He/She could have applied your Exemptions the way he/she did to allow for Direct Deposit of your refund that might be coming.

Perhaps you were filing right around payday. Your attny could have been allowing for your or your Hubby's paycheck to flow into your acct during that time.

There are any number of reasonable explanations for an attny allowing for more funds than are actually present the day the figures are given.

We were tight on Exemptions so our attny listed exactly what was in our acct the day we went to review and sign our Petition. Our Petition was actually submitted 2 days later, and, as I said before, an approx $60 Debit cleared. Our printed Bank Statement submitted by our attny to our Trustee at our 341 did not match our Petition and nothing was said.

Granted, our difference was not as sizable as yours, but the Trustees and attnys work together very well, generally speaking. The attnys know what the Trustees will and won't accept. If you're being told not to worry about it then it should be fine.

No it is not income that could be seized. He is not required to report any kind of changes to the Chapter 13 Trustee, unless it is earned income. We checked with out attorney and another one just to be sure.