Statement of presumed abuse...no reason! is that normal?

[dragonnfly]

OK I finally got my statement of presumed abuse. It was expected and I was actually awaiting it because I thought it might give me a reason why our 341 was continued. Neither us or our lawyer know why our 341 was continued, on pacer it just says for "more information" but I wish they would tell me what information they want and I would give it to them. So we get this on Pacer today and it just says "the us trustee has reviewed all the material submitted by the debtors and has determined that the debtors case is presumed to be a abuse under 11 u.s.c. etc" I thought usually when they presumed abuse the reason was usually given? Yes we are over the median and have had a interesting road so far if you read my other very long and detailed post. Another weird thing is we and our lawyer never received a notice from the court of the continued 341 its been 2 weeks since it was continued. Nothing. We do have a weird US trustee that doesn't get along with the judge we have and hes working mostly through the local trustee for this reason. I am so confused. I just want them to tell me what they want and I will provide it. Why so difficult. I dislike delays. Dragonnfly

[Dennis1971]

Do you have any clue why their claiming "Statement of presumed abuse?"
Just nervous, hoping I don't see anything like this on ours.

[dragonnfly]

We were pretty much told from the beginning that if your over the median they will find something to pick on you about and you will get the presumed abuse and you just have to not "roll over" (as my lawyer keeps putting it) and dispute their findings and hopefully win. Im all ready to fight IT, just tell me what IT is. My lawyer is still very confident in the ch 7. We are lucky there. But I like to know whats going on and I dont think anyone knows right now.

[laurannm]

I'm a little surprised that your lawyer is in the dark as to why the presumed abuse was filed...

[Mom2one]

I am curious, we are about $750.00 over our states median, if we try for a 7 do they presume abuse with that amount?

Christine

[whipster]

Request a hearing in front of the Judge, let the US trustee explain what he wants.

[dragonnfly]

We already have the continued 341, after driving my elderly lawyer insane with questions I got his very detailed of how he feels the system works, at least for here in Northern Oh. If your over the median you are going to get a "presumption of abuse". Period. They will find something to pick on, if they dont they have bosses that pick on them. So their only choice is to pick on you first. He feels that our continued 341 is just a reminder "post it note" to the US trustee who is in his own words "reviewing our case in 3 weeks". You can read about that in the other long post. He even feels thats why we haven't received any notice of the 341, because the trustee really doesn't want us to come. Its just his own way of making sure that our case comes back to his desk to be reviewed. I would still like to know what hes looking for, he doesn't like our 401k loan or child care for a 12 year old. I wil explain all this in writing if he needs. Just tell me. He even feels that they have to find something to pick apart on each over the median ch 7, because they have their own bosses reviewing their cases. He then goes on assuring me that he cant guarantee it but he feels that everything will work out. I am just my impatient self. I just noticed this under my flags it did say the meansno now it says meansyes. Whats that mean?

[getouttadebt]

MEANSYES actually means that the UST has probably determined that he believes necessary corrections to your Means Test calculations result in sufficient disposable income to warrant a Motion to Dismiss or Convert. I am not suggesting that this is correct, proper or even warranted. However, it happened to me and our case was eventually Dismissed. We re-filed immediately and are going through the process again. So far no word from the UST in my new petition. I would urge you to have your attorney contact the UST to find out the reason for his Statement of Presumed Abuse before your continued hearing.

From what I know, they can disallow your expense item for the 401(k) loan payment in Ch. 7, but not in Ch. 13.

All the best in getting your case resolved to your satisfaction...

getouttadebt

[getouttadebt]

Dragonfly, check this link:

http://www.almb.uscourts.gov/BankruptcyReformImplementation/Flowcharts/ba%20pres%20abuse.pdf

[dragonnfly]

After reading the above link the meansyes marking doesn't necessarly mean they are contesting the means test. It means they are contesting the ch 7 period, that it may be any part of the filing. The more I read the more Im convinced or trying to convince myself that all this is just the steps the US trustee is taking toward the issues he has that we already know about. He already made it clear, I was told and then heard him on the speaker phone myself say that he would not contest our means test, there truly is nothing there worth contesting. Our 401k loan is not on the means test, we were told from the beginning they would argue it on the means but not on J. About the only thing hes mentioned is the child care and thats $86 a month and our means test is negative 802.65, so even contesting that wont get him far. We were actually pretty conservative on the transportation area and we have a mistake that would be in our favor $232 that will be amended soon. I am a major problem solver, I lay awake at night and at 2am come up with the best solutions to problems that need thought out. Not knowing what the problem is, is driving me nuts. I can defend every expense in means and J. I just dont know what they want to know, that is whats making me need a very strong perscription. Thanks for all your insight. Dragonnfly

[JRScott]

Being that you are over the median this is pretty routine in some districts, based on your lawyer's advice yours is one of those. Keep in mind its sad but Trustee's are not your friend they are their for your creditors, and if they don't collect money they don't make much money. So some of the UST like to contest every one hoping a few bring some results. However I've heard of more cases where the presumption was dropped than a successful challenge by the UST lately.

[epiphany]

Keep in mind its sad but Trustee's are not your friend they are their for your creditors, and if they don't collect money they don't make much money.

Hey, I flunked this question on my credit counseling test. I answered like you did above (which is the truth) and was told that the correct answer was that the trustees were there for both ME and the creditor. Ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa!

ep

[dragonnfly]

I obviously need to lose my password to pacer. But that ain't happening. My lawyer do electronic notices like some he relies on mail. He can check pacer once I tell him somethings on there, but he didn't even believe me when I told him about the continued hearing because we never did receive anything in the mail. He had to look on pacer to confirm it. He was smart enough not to put the 401k loan on the means, besides the child care I cant find a thing on there they could pick on. I really just need to relax.....but that aint happening either.

[dragonnfly]

No-one answered the main question. Anyone know if the "presumption of abuse" on pacer usually says more. Mine only says "the us trustee has reviewed all the material submitted by the debtors and has determined that the debtors case is presumed to be a abuse under 11 u.s.c.(707)" Thats it. Nothing about 30 days, nothing about converting. Thats the only sentence on the whole letter. Odd.

[laurannm]

No-one answered the main question. Anyone know if the "presumption of abuse" on pacer usually says more. Mine only says "the us trustee has reviewed all the material submitted by the debtors and has determined that the debtors case is presumed to be a abuse under 11 u.s.c.(707)" Thats it. Nothing about 30 days, nothing about converting. Thats the only sentence on the whole letter. Odd.

In the cases I have seen in pacer in our district, the statement of presumed abuse was usually followed by another motion that actually contained the details of what the UST was objecting to. Usually it was within a few days of each other. But that could be specific to my district, not sure

Has your lawyer tried to contact the UST office?