pro se?

[Tabbygirl]

Any thoughts on pro se ch. 7 in Texas?

I have been reading like crazy as I have finally decided that Ch 7 is about the only way to dig myself out of the financial mess I have been in since my divorce 17 years ago. I am remarried, and we have no joint debt other than 2 vehicles. No real estate and just basically credit card debt and student loans (which I know I still have to pay.).

We also pass the means test because, well, I'm a teacher and dh works for a state agency and we make about the same $$$.

I hate the idea of doing this, but also, as a teacher, am concerned about the attorney expense and feel pretty confident that I can follow the forms, paper trail and the whole 9 yards. I used to work for the federal government so I have a pretty good idea of the bureaucratic web as well as allowable expenses, etc. (I worked for the IRS and dealt with liens, levys, oic, pmt plans etc)

Any thoughts? Success stories?! Thanks in advance for your help

[soleprop]

hi, just wanted to welcome another pro se advocate ;).

i can't justify spending $2500 on an attorney when i can't even afford health care, much less to pay my bills. so i'm filing pro se. currently working through the forms, will be filing this next week.

if you're serious about pro se, you'd be best equipped for the task with the NOLO CH 7 Bankruptcy book; between that book and this forum, i think i'll be ok.

ask if you have any questions, this forum is great for helping people out.

[CH33 Paralegal]

In my OPINION, I think that the attorney's fees are reasonable. Yes it's extra money, but at the same time, there is a lot of information you need to know and understand. In addition, the courts try their hardest to use language that barely makes sense.

This is a major decision for anyone's life and should be taken very seriously. if you're confident that you can handle your own BK, then by all means. Just understand that there will be a lot to keep track of and the court will not be cutting any slack.

[CH33 Paralegal]

and if your debts = tens of thousands or more, then paying $2500 to have them discharged the right way isn't that much of a cost.

[soleprop]

for the record, discharged via pro se filing is not the wrong way, either. and you have to find an attorney that takes your case as seriously as you do, and is worth the money you're paying. read through this forum enough and you'll see some questionable law practicing going on nationwide.

hmpf. i'd rather goof up and own the responsibility than pay someone money i don't have to goof up and stress me out more than if i'd filed pro se.



but yeah, it's all opinion. do what you need to do.

[Tabbygirl]

I appreciate the input; I have an appointment with an attorney next week and will learn more there. I actually live over an hour from the district court's offices, which makes it difficult to get there, which is yet another reason pro se looks attractive at this point.

I called the bk court's office, and asked for stats on pro se and was said about 1/3 of all ch 7's were now being down w/out an attorney. That's encouraging. I don't take this stuff lightly, at all, but also worry about the expense of a lawyer if this is something I can do on my own by researching and detailing everything explicitly.

Back to reading.....

[Priceless ProSe]

Any thoughts on pro se ch. 7 in Texas?

I have been reading like crazy as I have finally decided that Ch 7 is about the only way to dig myself out of the financial mess I have been in since my divorce 17 years ago. I am remarried, and we have no joint debt other than 2 vehicles. No real estate and just basically credit card debt and student loans (which I know I still have to pay.).

We also pass the means test because, well, I'm a teacher and dh works for a state agency and we make about the same $$$.

I hate the idea of doing this, but also, as a teacher, am concerned about the attorney expense and feel pretty confident that I can follow the forms, paper trail and the whole 9 yards. I used to work for the federal government so I have a pretty good idea of the bureaucratic web as well as allowable expenses, etc. (I worked for the IRS and dealt with liens, levys, oic, pmt plans etc)

Any thoughts? Success stories?! Thanks in advance for your help

I filed prose and I have to say that it wasnt a walk in the park. That being said I did learn alot. It took me maybe 40 hours, including the time needed to read the Nolo book. I decided to do it on a friday, bought the Nolo book that night, and filed my entire case the following monday. I have had to ammend twice, but this was due to forgetting to include a few creditors/wrong address, which would not have been avoided even if I did have an attourney.
To me it also depends on what you have. If you have some wierd situations going on, such as pending lawsuits agains people, a bunch of property, or other things you might need a lawyer.
I choose to go prose because I do not have the money to hire an attorney. But looking back (I did talk to one) he was going to charge me 1500 dollars to let his secratary fill out my paperwork. I still was responsible for gathering all the info, which is the bulk of the work. I would imagine that if it took me 40 hours, it might take them 4. And even at 50-60 hours it wouldnt be a bad wage.
I would reccomend using a thread on here that has the annotated forms for filing that are used to train the trustees, I think its entitled, "what a trustee looks for" or something like that, and the Nolo book was great for me (just make sure its the new edition).
If you really plug away this weekend you could easily file by monday or tuesday, just bounce questions off the people in this forum if you need help, and feel free to im/pm me.
The benefit of doing it yourself is you feel more knowledgable and in control as well, there are tons of posts on this site about attorneys who messed up peoples paperwork/BK, so even if you get one theres no garuntee. When I was in the attorneys office he actually called his secratary while I was there to tell her she had filled out and filed the wrong form for one of his clients, and the case might be dismissed! Why is his secratary doing his job?

Last thing, if I did have the money I probably would get an attorney, becuase it would be more costly if I messed up, but if I had 1500 bucks to throw away I wouldnt be in the position I am.

[Tabbygirl]

I choose to go prose because I do not have the money to hire an attorney. But looking back (I did talk to one) he was going to charge me 1500 dollars to let his secratary fill out my paperwork. I still was responsible for gathering all the info, which is the bulk of the work. I would imagine that if it took me 40 hours, it might take them 4. And even at 50-60 hours it wouldnt be a bad wage.

This is my logic, and also my experience at getting divorced...I provided the attorney the info and they put it into a word processing document. I also had to constantly remind them to finish up, etc., so that my divorce actually was filed in a timely manner (not 'whenever they get around to it...'). I also found mistakes they made and my attorney had to scribble in the changes at the courthouse, right before the judge.

I don't own any property right now and haven't for 3 years; an attorney I spoke with even mentioned that the fact I *don't* have a mortgage might cause problems (I live in a house my parents own in exchange for maintenance/upkeep etc.; it was my grandparents and my parents decided to keep it and not sell)...not sure about that logic. Like I said, I'm a teacher and in rural Texas; that means I don't make much, which also means I am grateful for not paying rent/mortgage because that would pretty much wipe out half or more of my take-home salary. The means test was passed with flying colors....

But I digress...I am still researching and at the least will order the Nolo book as a reference.

[danaf]

I filed pro se and didn't find it so difficult. Yeah - takes some time to make sure your doing it right but I've posted before about how I did it. Question though - you say you are remarried.....Texas is a community property state.....will both you and your husband be filing or just you?

[Joe Farmer]

I'd say get the official forms, read them.

Get your stuff together in a file so you'll be able to have the infomation at hand. Read that book. Be careful about exemptions in your state and plan accordingly, then file away. if 1/4 can do it that means like 400,000 pre se files a YEAR. Kudos~

[Tabbygirl]

I filed pro se and didn't find it so difficult. Yeah - takes some time to make sure your doing it right but I've posted before about how I did it. Question though - you say you are remarried.....Texas is a community property state.....will both you and your husband be filing or just you?

Thanks for the info; I will look for your posts as well. Any and all help/info is appreciated.

I am remarried, but the only joint debt we have are two autos, one of which is financed and the other is leased. He doesn't want to file, so basically it would just be my debt--not his. There may be some impact to his credit based on the 2 auto accounts, but those would be the only 2 joint accounts. We also don't have any property/real estate that's joint or part of the 'community,' (other than the autos, of which the financed one is actually upside down) either. We have kept everything separate for a variety of reasons, specifically since we both were married previously.

Whether or not he files, I still feel like I need to do so in order to, at some point, get ahead and be there for my kids.

[learnmore]

Picking on Pro Se

I'm considering Pro Se in Texas as well. After meeting with several attorneys, I'm convinced I can handle the filing...

... HOWEVER, I can't shake the fear that having "pro se" next to my name is going to mark me as an easy target for extra scrutiny from creditors and the trustee. I'm NOT trying to hide anything, but it just seems like it's too easy for creditors to pick on pro se filers with the threat of adversary proceeding.

I'd be really interested to see statistics on the percentage of objections to pro se cases versus professionally represented ones. Perhaps having a lawyer's signature on the case is alone with the $1500 - $2000 if it draws less attention.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Tabbygirl, I filed pro se after studying and researching very carefully, and not only did I not have any problems at all, I found it one of the most empowering challenges I have ever taken on.

It's not rocket science. But you DO need to spend the time of reading the book, doing the forms, asking the questions, reading the bk sites and blogs, and basically knowing the process pretty thoroughly. But even if you were to get an attorney, I would recommend the exact same approach. As was pointed out above (and in innumerable other posts on this board) there is no shortage of attorneys who will sleepwalk through the process that directly controls your financial wellbeing and future. Whether you file pro se or get an atty, learn the process anyway. You'll be a better client and you'll have fewer surprises.

Can I give you a tip? The Nolo book is very clear on what situations *really* do call for an atty. If you read through the book and he doesn't mention you by name and you still feel fairly confident about your ability to see it through, you're probably good. Then download the forms and fill them out by hand -- that alone will flesh out most of the questions you may have -- and go from there. At any point prior to filing, you can still retain an atty if you feel you need to, but since you're going to have to give him all the info for the forms anyway, you might as well. It's not a waste of time or effort, and it should make your own ability pretty clear to you with a quickness.

Be wary of BPPs (bankruptcy petition preparers); every deficiency notice I ever saw was on a case that had been filed pro se and prepared by a BPP. They're not allowed to give you legal advice, you have to tell them exactly what to put where on the forms, so if you've gotten that far you may as well prepare them yourself or use an online bankruptcy "form filler". I did not use one but I've heard mixed reviews, so you may want to check that option out too.

Good luck!!!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

I'm considering Pro Se in Texas as well. After meeting with several attorneys, I'm convinced I can handle the filing...

... HOWEVER, I can't shake the fear that having "pro se" next to my name is going to mark me as an easy target for extra scrutiny from creditors and the trustee. I'm NOT trying to hide anything, but it just seems like it's too easy for creditors to pick on pro se filers with the threat of adversary proceeding.

I'd be really interested to see statistics on the percentage of objections to pro se cases versus professionally represented ones. Perhaps having a lawyer's signature on the case is alone with the $1500 - $2000 if it draws less attention.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

I'd say go with your gut on this, but in the end, a creditor's case must still be heard and decided by a judge. Whether you're pro se or not, they have to file an objection with more than "Learnmore owes me money and didn't pay it!"

I will agree that if you are LIKELY to encounter creditor objections (see HHM's excellent sticky on the subject) an attorney is a really good idea... but expect to pay big $$$, because creditor objections are usually not covered by the basic atty fee you pay. They're charged extra, and may involve hourly billing.

For what it's worth, in a straightforward no-asset Ch7, an atty does three things: offers advice (of varying quality, depending on the atty ), prepares the forms, and sits beside you at the 341 while YOU answer the trustee's questions. If you can read legalese, don't get nellie at the sight of a form, and have enough wisdom to know when to back off and ask for help, a no-asset pro se Ch7 is by no means beyond your practical and intellectual reach.

That's my thought on it, anyway.

[Tabbygirl]

Whether you file pro se or get an atty, learn the process anyway. You'll be a better client and you'll have fewer surprises.

I completely agree with this; I had that mindset when I divorced in the early '90s, to the point that my attorney asked why I was doing his job since I was learning all the legalese/procedural stuff. I told him it was MY life and I wanted to make sure the divorce was done correctly (I think he was more used to people who hired him and sat back and did nothing) and that everything was taken care of.

Can I give you a tip? The Nolo book is very clear on what situations *really* do call for an atty. If you read through the book and he doesn't mention you by name and you still feel fairly confident about your ability to see it through, you're probably good.

I am ordering the Nolo e-book sometime this weekend--I have a grad school assignment (statistics, how apt!) due this weekend and I need to work on that; otherwise, if I buy something to read like Nolo I will be more likely to ignore my classwork.