Anyone file for second time?

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Confused, Rfassett and Help! are absolutely right. When they say "the rules are the rules," what that means is that you either qualify for a Ch7 discharge or you don't, based on your current filing. Nothing else. Not even your previous discharge.

That previous discharge/multiple filings thing is in the new law because there are some people who abuse it badly; I think it's pretty obvious that you do not fit that category. I know you see increased attention from the trustee as a worst case scenario, but to me it's actually more of a "best case" scenario: the closer they look, the more it will be absolutely apparent that you are who you say you are, and that you have been truthful with everything you filed.

I know this isn't a part of your current post, but I remember others encouraging you to report this fraud that you were a victim of, and I agree 100%. If you are claiming fraud, but haven't reported fraud, that might raise some questions you don't want. From an outsider's point of view, you could be complicit whether you reported it or not, but if you report it yourself it's much less likely that you were a knowing party to the fraud. See my point? So if you haven't already reported it, reconsider doing so, and discuss it thoroughly with your atty too so that he can alleviate your fears and advise you on it.

That, and if you have to puke your guts up at the 341, try to miss the trustee's shoes. Good luck!!!

[Confused14]

Thank you guys for being so supportive. FreshLikeADaisy: You were right on the money with your post! My attorney strongly advised me to report this fraud as it will help me in the long run if in fact it's questioned or brought up. I had planned on reporting it for months, but didn't know who to report it to. I kept getting different answers, so I just never reported it. I honestly hope these people who ruined my life get what they deserve. I hope my reporting them results in their arrest or prosecution. I really appreciate all the answers, insight and experiences. I'm just worried what the trustee will say and do on that issue and the fact that I previously filed. Those are my main worries not to mention whether I'll get a discharge or not!

[No Gravy]

That, and if you have to puke your guts up at the 341, try to miss the trustee's shoes. Good luck!!!

Best advice EVER!

[Cali]

Just because an attorney lets you file doesn't mean you won't have a problem with it.

If the attorney let you file then he must feel that you should have no problem. Did you tell your attorney about the 1st bankruptcy?

[No Gravy]

How about filing for a third time? *meekly raises hand*

The first time I was 23, stupid, virtually no debt, and newly married, to a man 15 years my senior who had a LOT of debt (did I mention I was stupid? OK, just so that's covered), and he was freshly divorced with a massive alimony/child support payment.

He decided to file BK, I had no choice but to go along. This was the early 80's, the rules were different then. I vaguely remember the attorney saying it was good to include me, that it benefited the case. Wish I could remember why, but that was a long time ago. We filed chapter 13. Long hard road, paid it off, divorced (duhhhh....bet you saw that coming, eh?), I vowed to never, EVER do that again.

Fast forward to 10 years later, the early 90's. I was remarried to an abusive alcoholic. The day I got diagnosed with cancer -- that my doctor did not expect me to survive, btw -- he walked out. Kindest thing he ever did for me, though I didn't see it quite that way at the time. I had been supporting us and my son, because whenever the then husband got paid, he drank it. It's OK, don't cry over him...he was able to find another dumb schmuck to support him!

I was off work for a year, I was a physical and emotional wreck. I started living on credit cards, as it took disability 9 months to come through. Yes, the state was undoubtedly hoping I would die first, but I had the last laugh on that one! I survived, even a second bout with cancer, and have been cancer-free for 14 years now. *knocks on wood* During this time, I filed bankruptcy, chapter 7. I waited too long, and looking back I wished I'd filed sooner than I did.

This is sort of off-topic, but one of my favorite memories from that time was just before I went in for the initial surgery, I got a call from MBNA collections. I was in a weird, flippant mood that day (I know, imagine, eh?), and I told the guy something to the effect of "I don't really care WHAT you do to me, I'm going to die anyway, so bring it on!"

Well, we got talking. He ended up being the nicest guy, incredibly supportive, and he'd call just to chat (through he did it on MBNA's dime) and to check up on me, to see how I was doing.

He even called me at the hospital after surgery, when my family was there. I tried to explain who he was, but all they knew was that someone from a credit card company was calling me *in the hospital*! We all laughed about that later, it became one of those warm family stories.

After that I worked hard on my credit rating. Up until a year ago, I had a spotless record, and rarely carried a balance on any card. Even as recently as 6 months ago i would have said that bankruptcy would NEVER again be an option in my life, because I fought too hard to come back from it. I still remember the day when I pulled my credit report and saw that BK *finally* OFF...

Thing is, life is unpredictable. Even when you have a savings account, even when you have 6 months expenses set aside, even when you have a plan for being completely debt free (including the mortgage) in 2 years.

Surprises happen. Never say never.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

...My attorney strongly advised me to report this fraud as it will help me in the long run if in fact it's questioned or brought up. I had planned on reporting it for months, but didn't know who to report it to. I kept getting different answers, so I just never reported it...

Well, it's actually not surprising you got different answers, because there are various ways to report fraud, depending on what sort of fraud this is (mortgage fraud in this case, it sounds like). The trick is to report it *everywhere* you can, not just in one place.

You're gonna spend some time on this, don't kid yourself. Hours, at least. But it's well worth it... you've spent at least that much time worrying about it.

I know this isn't going to be what you want to hear, but I would start with trying to get a police report, if they'll give you one. I would also contact the state attorney general's office for further direction, and for mortgage fraud, the Fannie Mae folks.

Here's a hint: I just now googled "report mortgage fraud" and the very first link, http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/Mor..._Resources.asp , was very informative. I had no idea the FBI was the go-to place for mortgage fraud... whaddya know.

Anyway, start *somewhere*. You really won't regret it. And once you start, if you're asked why it took you so long, you can respond truthfully that it took you a while to find out where to go and to whom to report it, but you are now actively pursuing those options.

Good luck!!!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

...Thing is, life is unpredictable. Even when you have a savings account, even when you have 6 months expenses set aside, even when you have a plan for being completely debt free (including the mortgage) in 2 years.

Surprises happen. Never say never.

Ain't that the damn truth.

I love that you shared your story -- I bet it will give somebody some much-needed courage! If you can get through all that, you can get through anything. Though I must say, I'd actually rather have the cancer than the alcoholic spouse: it would at least be an adversary I could respect. Good luck with bk #3!!!

[Confused14]

I contacted the district attorney's office in my county a few weeks ago and have not heard back from him. My attorney said it's up to them to decide if they want to pursue it, and there's nothing else I could do with them, how I did my part by reporting it.

I also went to the district attorney's office today in the county where the property was located. I spoke to someone from the criminal complaint unit. The woman was not very nice to me nor understanding. She said that what happened was not a criminal offense. Was it wrong, yes, but not criminal. I disagree though. In my opinion if you purposely deceive someone, that's a criminal act. She said I could file complaints with the Dept. of Banking and the Grievance Committee for the lawyer who jerked me. She also said I could hire a private attorney and see if I could pursue it as a civil matter, but she said that can be very expensive. She said she can't do anything with my case, just hold onto it. This is why it took so long to figure out where to go, what to do, who to see, etc. I look it up and see that it's potentially a criminal offense, then I speak to someone in the criminal field and they say there's nothing criminal about it.

Do you think the Trustee and/or US Trustee will grill me about this? Do you think they'll open an investigation?? This has me so nervous.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

...Do you think the Trustee and/or US Trustee will grill me about this? Do you think they'll open an investigation?? This has me so nervous.

I think that "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"...

Honestly, you can't possibly know or predict. But I do know that all this worrying is costing you a great deal, and not preparing you AT ALL for such an eventuality. If you can, for your own sake, set it aside for now. Wait for them to say something first. If you keep worrying about it as intensely as you are now, and you walk into your 341 that way, all nervous and bunched up and tightly wound, it's going to be far more hellish than it has to be, even if they ask nothing at all about it.

If they do ask about it, you answer their questions as briefly and forthrightly as you can. If that doesn't suffice for whatever reason, you will have every opportunity to respond and present your own case. It's useless to even think that far ahead, because IF that were to happen, your response would need to be based on the specific nature of the trustee's objection. You can't predict that. And frankly, many such questions are resolved by just providing additional documentation. It's *exceptionally* rare for it to be the big bad thing you may be imagining right now.

I know it's not my bk and it may seem easy for me to say, but please... set this aside for now. Concentrate on what you CAN change, and you'll have a lot more energy and courage left to deal with whatever does happen.

[Confused14]

I understand what you're saying. I won't know what they'll ask, if anything. I'll try not to worry too much It's just that I get the feeling people don't believe me about the situation. A lot of people I've spoken to gave me the impression that I knew what was going on and such, when I didn't. People on other boards have scolded me, put me in the corner and said I deserved to go to jail. I just worry the same will happen at my meeting. I know I have support for my story, (reporting what happened) but I wonder if it's enough. I dont think I've ever been so worried in all my life. I'm trying to push it out of my mind as best I can.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

...It's just that I get the feeling people don't believe me about the situation. A lot of people I've spoken to gave me the impression that I knew what was going on and such, when I didn't. People on other boards have scolded me, put me in the corner and said I deserved to go to jail. I just worry the same will happen at my meeting. I know I have support for my story, (reporting what happened) but I wonder if it's enough.

Confused, you're a victim of what is called the Just World Theory.

Basically, no one wants to believe that bad things come out of the blue. It's much more safe feeling to believe that if we just work hard enough, try hard enough, do the right rain dance, everything will work out as it should.

As you have found out -- and as many people on this board can attest -- that is self-delusion. S**t happens. It happens to the best of us. Sometimes we deserve it, sometimes it really does come boomeranging out of the clear blue sky (like Eddie Murphy's mama's shoe ). But for people who desperately need to believe that the world is safe, it's much easier for them to tell themselves that you deserved it, you were stupid, you were complicit... whatever makes them feel better. This actually has nothing to do with what you really went through, or what the truth is, it has to do with frightened people insulating themselves from what they perceive as your contagious bad luck.

But whether you deserved it somehow or not, the truth is the truth. I don't know if you pray or meditate, but if you can, take some time in a quiet place and imagine yourself telling people what happened to you, and receiving understanding and full belief in return. If you can *expect* belief, you're far more likely to receive it.

I know that sounds trite, but it works. I've been in your shoes. And it does get better. The most important thing is that YOU know what is true, and you can communicate that clearly and confidently when the time comes. Whatever you can do to achieve that, and get the fears of other people back out of your heart and mind, is well worth the effort, no matter how goofy it may seem.

I wish you well.

P.S. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

[PaKettle]

Depends on how long ago your discharge was, how big the region is that you live in (I think it's less of a problem in big cities where they get LOTS of re-filings), and how good of a reason you had each time, and how much debt you have, as to how closely they may scrutinize you.

I know several cases where people filed twice with no problems. If it's right at the 7 year mark then the Trustee may frown on that. But again, if you have a good reason (loss of job, health problems) old credit not new credit, etc. (justified case) then it should not be a problem at all.

Bottom line is, it is legal to do so, so if you have a solid case there should be no problem no matter how much the Trustee may not like it.

[No Gravy]

Ain't that the damn truth.

I love that you shared your story -- I bet it will give somebody some much-needed courage!

Thank you

If you can get through all that, you can get through anything. Though I must say, I'd actually rather have the cancer than the alcoholic spouse: it would at least be an adversary I could respect.

My thoughts exactly!

[No Gravy]

Confused, you're a victim of what is called the Just World Theory.

Basically, no one wants to believe that bad things come out of the blue. It's much more safe feeling to believe that if we just work hard enough, try hard enough, do the right rain dance, everything will work out as it should.

As you have found out -- and as many people on this board can attest -- that is self-delusion. S**t happens. It happens to the best of us. Sometimes we deserve it, sometimes it really does come boomeranging out of the clear blue sky (like Eddie Murphy's mama's shoe ). But for people who desperately need to believe that the world is safe, it's much easier for them to tell themselves that you deserved it, you were stupid, you were complicit... whatever makes them feel better. This actually has nothing to do with what you really went through, or what the truth is, it has to do with frightened people insulating themselves from what they perceive as your contagious bad luck.

But whether you deserved it somehow or not, the truth is the truth. I don't know if you pray or meditate, but if you can, take some time in a quiet place and imagine yourself telling people what happened to you, and receiving understanding and full belief in return. If you can *expect* belief, you're far more likely to receive it.

I know that sounds trite, but it works. I've been in your shoes. And it does get better. The most important thing is that YOU know what is true, and you can communicate that clearly and confidently when the time comes. Whatever you can do to achieve that, and get the fears of other people back out of your heart and mind, is well worth the effort, no matter how goofy it may seem.

I wish you well.

P.S. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

Holy COW...I had no idea there was a term/name for what I've been seeing happening!

My house is in pre-foreclosure, so I've been following any news on the housing market, "the foreclosure crisis" and "the mortgage meltdown" as the news calls it. I've been absolutely astounded by the number of people who want to blame *all* homeowners in this situation, that somehow 2.2 million people suddenly became stupid idiots.

To me, people are reacting that way out of fear...fear that it could be them next. Yet when the economy is booming, folks are all too happy to help out anyone struggling to make mortgage payments. Only when we're all struggling does the finger-pointing start.

Anyway, thanks for including that link. I had no idea there was a name for "it."

[No Gravy]

People on other boards have scolded me, put me in the corner and said I deserved to go to jail.

I found a couple of other credit boards, that also had a forum/section on bankruptcy, seemed to have a lot of judgmental members. I think suggesting you "deserve to go to jail" goes far being being judgmental, and that notion - based on what you've said here of the situation - is completely ludicrous. After having been told that, no wonder you're scared to death of your 341 meeting!

I always thought talking politics or religion were controversial. Piece of cake, compared to bankruptcy! I run across some people who had filed bankruptcy themselves, and yet looked down at others who did. And others in those "other, un-named" bankruptcy forums seem to only be there to talk people *out* of filing.

I tell ya...humans are a weird species.

Trust your attorney, and the advice he gives you about your case. You *can* get good general information from this and other boards, but only your attorney knows all the facts and is able to advise you on what's best for you. No one on any online board knows all the facts of your case, and no one is in a position to judge you. Because of the anonymous nature of the Internet, it's a lot easier for people to be jerks and put down people they barely know anything about, just to puff up their own ego. Don't let their fantasy become your reality.

Know that you're in good company right now. In fact, in 2008, the number of bankruptcy filings is expected to exceed 1,000,000!