Denver 341 today

[messedupbad]

I had my 341 today it was a lot different than I thought. The 341 were held in a make shift areas broken into 4-5 meeting rooms holding 10-13 people max. I dident know if I could go in or not so I waited for a few min then I went in the room and sat down. When it was my turn I was asked and answered all the normal questions. The one question the trustee seemed to focus on was that I bought a new 2005 truck on 6-26-2005 and someting about when I paid the tags. I said August and he wanted the Vin number and who I have the loan through to see if something was recorded in 20 days or not. What does this mean? My lawyers said since the lien has a time limit the trustee is checking to see if he will become the new owner of the loan. Lawyer said it wont change anything just the trustee way of making the bank give him some money not me." I am total lost with this one". The trustee asked me what my payments were when I said $674.00 he shook his head and said wow!. Said good luck and that my lawyer had his fax number to send the Vin number to him. I felt like i was going to die every thime he asked me a question. Any help with the 20 thing would be great

[Genenco]

No, no help but I agree..WOW on the payment..Of course, mine is $490 and on a 2003 Dodge Durango

[bkfiler]

prob something to do with a perfected lien maybe, no idea on that but its got nothing to do with you, its got to do with the money they bank got from you when it should not have. dont worry, its their problem not yours.

maybe its like a preferential payment and if so then whoever got it gets money back.

no worrys

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Just curious is the $674 "normal" or around normal for your area? Not to scare you, but sometimes this is what the US Trustee looks at. Probably nothing, but I guess you will know within 2 months.

Good luck!

[messedupbad]

I dont know what is normal but truck was 38,000 after we got the loan. Dealer called us back because first loan did not go through so they got us another deal but the intrest was higher and so were payments. I traded in a jeep and its paymnets were $500.00 so I would say a little higher but we dont have any other car payments so still under what is allowed for two auto loans total. Husband needs truck for work so that might help I will be worried for the next 60day that is for sure. Our other car is a 1991

[FoolAndHisMoney]

I dont know what is normal but truck was 38,000 after we got the loan. Dealer called us back because first loan did not go through so they got us another deal but the intrest was higher and so were payments. I traded in a jeep and its paymnets were $500.00 so I would say a little higher but we dont have any other car payments so still under what is allowed for two auto loans total. Husband needs truck for work so that might help I will be worried for the next 60day that is for sure. Our other car is a 1991

I wouldn't worry then. Not sure, but I don't think they would just claim substantial abuse. I think they would question the larger then normal expenses and if it's needed to work then it should be fine. If it was a luxury car that would be different. Good luck!

[Minnymouth]

OKAY, regarding the car title and the 20 days.
This also happened to a girl in my office who just filed recently. Her vehicle was bought in July and she filed in Oct.
If the Trustee checks and finds that the title was not recorded and the lien took against it within 20 days of sale then the loan company does not have a valid lien on the vehicle, (thus creating a "asset to you" that is free and clear).
This is called an "unperfected title". I know, because I lost my home the same way this past year because of a mortgage company failing to record title and their lien against it.
Sorry to say, but this puts the Trustee in a postion to take the vehicle from you (an asset) as if you own it free and clear, and either resell it to you for cash, or sell outright to someone else.
This also puts you in a position where you cannot "reaffirm" on the vehicle - you can only redeem it at fair market value from the Trustee.
If you can afford to do that (cash only), its too your advantage because you buy the vehicle a lot cheaper than what you owed on it or paid for it.........
If you can't afford to buy it back - your just out your vehicle and loss of any downpayment on it.
Don't mean to scare you, but want to give you an idea of "what" you might be up against trying to keep your vehicle.
I'm sure the Trustee will file an Adversary Complaint against the loan company to take the vehicle. This will cost you more lawyer fees, and court fees to go to court and fight it.
The girl here in the office that has the same situation as yours - the Trustee filed an Adversary Complaint to take the vehicle and sell it. Now she has to buy it back in cash if she wants to keep it......
Hopefully, maybe, you just might be "lucky" enough where the loan company did file their papers and put their lien on the vehicle.... I sure hope so for you.....

Let me know what your lawyer says. He's not going to say a whole lot too you until he knows for sure what the Trustee finds and is going to do about it.

I lost an $80,000 investment in my home (they are auctioning it off in Dec) because of a "unperfected title". It didn't make any difference that I had $80,000 tied up in downpayment and payments over 8 years. Was told "sorry - your loss"!!!
Sad part is - there was nothing I could do to stop the proceedings and the Trustee refused to sell my home back to me under redemption because the mortgage company thru a "fit".....

Needless to say, I will file a major lawsuit after Dec. against the mortgage company and title company that created the bad "unperfected" title and caused me to loose my home thru no fault of my own.

This situation has happened to me and others also regarding homes and vehicles.

REMEMBER - the Trustee works for the creditors. Our "interest" means B*&*&* to him....

Good luck, and keep me posted.

Minny

PS you should know something shortly about what they are going to do about it.

[Genenco]

OKAY, regarding the car title and the 20 days.
This also happened to a girl in my office who just filed recently. Her vehicle was bought in July and she filed in Oct.
If the Trustee checks and finds that the title was not recorded and the lien took against it within 20 days of sale then the loan company does not have a valid lien on the vehicle, (thus creating a "asset to you" that is free and clear).
This is called an "unperfected title". I know, because I lost my home the same way this past year because of a mortgage company failing to record title and their lien aginst it.
Sorry to say, but this puts the Trustee in a postion to take the vehicle from you (an asset) as if you own it free and clear, and either resell it to you for cash, or sell outright to someone else.
This also puts you in a position where you cannot "reaffirm" on the vehicle - you can only redeem it at fair market value from the Trustee.
If you can afford to do that (cash only), its too your advantage because you buy the vehicle a lot cheaper than what you owed on it or paid for it.........
If you can't afford to buy it back - your just out your vehicle and loss of any downpayment on it.
Don't mean to scare you, but want to give you an idea of "what" you might be up against trying to keep your vehicle.
I'm sure the Trustee will file an Adversary Complaint against the loan company to take the vehicle. This will cost you more lawyer fees, and court fees to go to court and fight it.
Minny

PS you should know something shortly about what they are going to do about it.

Minny? If this (Say it happens to me) and the title is not "Perfected" then the trustee takes it, what does the loan company do? Come after you? Trustee? Throw up their hands and cry?

[Minnymouth]

The loan company cannnot come after you to recoup their losses.
The trustee will sell the vehicle and the proceeds will be divided among all the creditors involved - secured first then unsecured. All will get a percentage.
Yes the loan company will "take a hit" like you, but not as bad, cause they'll get a percentage of the sale since they are a creditor also.

Hope this helps,

Minny

[Minnymouth]

The trustee will be "thrilled" - he makes money off this!!!

Minny

[bkfiler]

minny said "If the Trustee checks and finds that the title was not recorded and the lien took against it within 20 days of sale then the loan company does not have a valid lien on the vehicle"

minny, can you explain what usually happens when you buy a car verses what may have happended as you mentioned above?

also, why is 20 days a number? what is 20 days mean?

thanks

[Minnymouth]

Okay,
Most states have a law that titles to mobile homes and vehicles have to be transferred and recorded with 10-20 days when a lien is involved. Some states its 10 days, some 20. Its in their state laws governing titles and liens on titles. Its often referred too as the "20 day law" and many Trustees play upon this law regarding titles and liens.

Okay, my moble home for instance, the mortgage co/title company never transferred or recorded the title to the mobile home at the courthouse. Thus the mortgage company never had a "perfected lien" against the mobile home. When I filed bk, the trustee said I owned it free and clear with no liens and took it as an asset of mine to sell. Nothing the mortgage company nor I could do about it. Legally the mobile home (at the courthouse records) still belongs to the seller and had for 8 years. Yet the strong arm of the court took it as my asset. ( I'm still hunting information on how they can do that when legally its not mine).

Now on a vehicle its basically the same thing. Evidently the lien holder did not put their lien on the auto within the 20 days of sale. Or possible when the trustee checked it had no lien against it (where they failed to record it). This creates the auto being owned free and clear....by the debtor.... thus becoming a asset for the trustee to take and sell.

The loan company may hold a peice of a paper saying they have a lien on the auto, but the actual lien HAS TO BE RECORDED on the title itself.

In my case the mortgage company had a lien on the land (lot) but did not have a lien on the actual title to the mobile home. It too HAD TO BE RECORDED ON THE ACTUAL TITLE.

If its not on the title itself - its not valid. Thus the property or auto is owned by the individual free and clear of any liens. So trustee takes it to sell.........

This is also what happened to one of the girls in my office who just bought a new car before filing bk. Her loan papers say "lien" but the title on the auto has no lien on it.

Hope I haven't confused you more. This is a tricky thing and they really use it too... the only one that "looses" is you and I.

Had I known that my mobile home had a title like a car, I would have made SURE it was recorded, but me being a first time mobile home buyer was unaware of this and ASSUMED that the paperwork at the closing 8 years ago was done correctly. ASlo, my lawyer should have caught this being he was in practice for 25 years doing bankruptcy's. Evidently he DIDN'T look at any of MY PAPERWORK... before he filed it.

Hope this helps explain,

Minny

[bkfiler]

if it wasnt recorded in 20 days for example but it was done on the 30th day instead then does that count? or is it too late forever kinda thing?

what im guessing is that the 20 days for that example above means that the trustee cant do anything about it while its in the 20 day period, BUT, after that since it was legally supposed to be recorded then the trustee can take it from the owner since they 'own' it without a legal lien, BUT if that lien were to be recorded after the 20 days but before the trustee found out about it then everything is recorded now as it should be and everything must go as normal and expected. is this correct?

[Minnymouth]

If I'm reading you right, yes I think your right!!

Touchy law though, some take it that if its not recorded in the 20 day period, its not valid...... this is what the girl in my office encountered. Lien was taken like 40 days later...

Some states may treat this differently....

Minny

[Minnymouth]

On my title that had not been recorded in 8 years, if it had been recorded one year before I filed bk, then the trustee would have considered it a valid lien.....

But recording a lien during banktruptcy - it's not valid.


Minny