Payment to attorney question

[bkinfoseeker]

I paid the full fee in advance of the Oct deadline for it to be put in escrow even though I wasn't ready but the forms did not get filed in time (and they were a complete mess). I am probably better off under the new law but I must wait. I am really worried since I am reading that I must put on the Financial Affairs Form that I had a payment to a BK attorney in Oct. Since Oct. I have had to transfer stuff around to get lower interest rates in order to stay on top of the payments. Can they really sopeona my records. Whatever happened to lawyer client confidentiality.

[bkfiler]

what you tell your attorney is not private or privledged. its a damn farse. i learned that quick. as soon as you mention something then it has to be put onto the forms. they will read you the 'i'm under duty of the court' crap and all without ever warning you about anything. thank god i didnt have anything to hide.

the other BIG un-truth they lie about is that they will stop the creditors and suits and liens once you pay them. oh, well its actually once you pay them AND then they actually file, then you are protected. oh wait, well once you pay them, and then they file, and then you log and note every violation of the stay AND send them a certified letter AND then send them 3 with tracking it all and calling them before you file suit, THEN you are going to be protected. its all bullsh*t.

think its not? do you know how easy it is to tell when the stay was violated? but no one will do anything about it unless and until its so outrageous. think they couldnt fine and punish the collection agencies if they wanted to?

"well i didnt mean to exactly violate the FEDERAL courts stay order"

"well i didnt mean to not pay my traffic ticket and dont want a late fee"

"well i didnt mean to rob the liquor store and steal ho-ho's, so dont put me in jail"

think about those. all court related.

well anyways, thats the two biggest lies ive learned while going through a bk process and hope it helps others learn from my comments in some way too.

[bkinfoseeker]

Well I certainly did learn something but I can't say it makes me feel any better. Thanks for the info.

[Genenco]

I paid the full fee in advance of the Oct deadline for it to be put in escrow even though I wasn't ready but the forms did not get filed in time (and they were a complete mess). I am probably better off under the new law but I must wait. I am really worried since I am reading that I must put on the Financial Affairs Form that I had a payment to a BK attorney in Oct. Since Oct. I have had to transfer stuff around to get lower interest rates in order to stay on top of the payments. Can they really sopeona my records. Whatever happened to lawyer client confidentiality.

OK, Since you are filing under new laws, there's new wrinkles.

If your lawyer is good, they can stop the creditor calls, however, some are quite nasty and they'll pull every dirty trick possible.

Moving the amounts to lower interest will hurt you more..."Why?" Because the trustee may see this as "Substantial Abuse" You are paying Peter, by ripping off Paul. You now should wait 6 months before filing..And the trustee can STILL go back 1 year and declare abuse and you're screwed.

Be fully honest, when listing all assets and liabilties...

Take care and let us know what's going on...

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Moving the amounts to lower interest will hurt you more..."Why?" Because the trustee may see this as "Substantial Abuse" You are paying Peter, by ripping off Paul. You now should wait 6 months before filing..And the trustee can STILL go back 1 year and declare abuse and you're screwed.


Genenco, "substantial abuse" is actually what the US trustee looks for under 707b which is when a debtor has mostly consumer debts and has higher then normal expenses they can fund a 13 plan instead of a 7 discharge.



I paid the full fee in advance of the Oct deadline for it to be put in escrow even though I wasn't ready but the forms did not get filed in time (and they were a complete mess). I am probably better off under the new law but I must wait. I am really worried since I am reading that I must put on the Financial Affairs Form that I had a payment to a BK attorney in Oct. Since Oct. I have had to transfer stuff around to get lower interest rates in order to stay on top of the payments. Can they really sopeona my records. Whatever happened to lawyer client confidentiality.

bkinfoseeker, you may want to wait it out as long as possible. Even though these damn credit card companies encourage balance transfers, doing it so close to filing they would cry fraud. It also wouldn't look good either if you met with a bankruptcy lawyer and then made these transactions after. I think (not sure though) how they find out is if a creditor disputes a charge and you have to go to court they would probably ask you under oath when you saw a bankruptcy lawyer. If you were to wait over the 90 days since you retained the lawyer then at least you wouldn't have to list that payment on the forms. Were the balance transfers large? Not sure of a "safe zone", but I hear a lot that six months is usually pretty safe. A year is better and so on. This also depends upon the amount.

Good luck!

[AAAArt]

Fool...has it correct. Sorry, but transfers that close can be considered fraud. A lot will be determined by the means test.
You may be forced into a chap. 13, which will prob. still make you much better off.
No, not everything you tell an atty. is privileged. As an officer of the court, they cannot allow you to lie (commit perjury) and be a party to that.
Atty's give legal advice...use this. Here is my situation, which would be the best route for me to take?
Also, when dealing with them, don't be afraid to phrase your questions in hypotheticals, "Suppose someone..." That way you did not actually "tell" them anything, you just sought information.
The best advice I got was from an atty. I interviewed, then wound up not using. Never turn a financial problem into a criminal problem.
P.S. Don't be terrified of the word "fraud". It's not pleasant, but you didn't willingly steal from the widows and orphans fund. You will not go to jail if you are honest. You may have to wait to file, or pay part or all of it back, but the amount and interest can be negotiated. Art

[bkinfoseeker]

Looking to wait five to six months. Yes, the transfers are large by all standards. The law goes tells you 90 days and they really mean 6 months to a year.
I actually read case histories online when balance transfers were allowed less than 60 days because the debtor never took possesion of the money but probably doesn't happen that often in the real world.

If you were to wait over the 90 days since you retained the lawyer then at least you wouldn't have to list that payment on the forms.

The form actually says 1 year for attorney payments. Maybe this is under the new law? Biggest problem there is paper trail for the attorney payment which made sense at the time so it did not look like I was hiding money.

[bkfiler]

"The best advice I got was from an atty. I interviewed, then wound up not using."

yep, aint that the truth. you and me both brother!

[FoolAndHisMoney]

The "fraud thing" is kinda misleading to us all. It's actually best to refer to it as the "presumption period". True it's now 90 days under new law, but all this means is the courts placing the burdon of proof on the debtor or creditor. Large purchases/advances inside the presumption period if a creditor disputes this the debtor would have the burdon of proving they did not have the intention of defrauding the creditor. Outside the presumption period (more then 90 days) the creditor has to prove to the courts that the debtor intentionally tried to stiff them. Most people feel they are safe outside the presumption period and probably are for small purchases. If someone takes a 10k cash advance and files 91 days later the creditor can still have a strong case of winning the judge over. The further back the more difficult to prove unless it's a credit card kiting scheme. The judge can sniff those offender's out real good I imagine.

[bkfiler]

come on... how many people constantly use their credit cards to live on and make minumum payments and struggle for years with before its all a lost cause. that is a form of kiting.

the good news is that if the US Trustee doesn't smell any extra disposable income that he can get them they usually just let it go. now how logical is it? this is yet another thing that shows me just how this system works, or doesnt.

the point being that your use of the credit cards becomes more of a kiting scheme if there is disposable income is not fair and bias emerges when extra cash is thought to be had.

you could liken it to a jailer with a great big new super jail needing to fill it with people now seeing spitting on the sidewalks and throuwing away gum in the street as illegal when before it was just overlooked.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

I AGREE with you 100% bkfiler! I'm just assuming that's what they look for by what I read. I guess they actually look for that case we discussed weeks ago where the 25k a year guy racked up 100k in debt and used citi's convenience checks to pay other creditors until months before he filed. The whole thing of accusing debtors of kiting is a complete joke! Everyone does this in one for or another. People borrow money simply because they need it and don't have it. That isn't fraud as far as I'm concerned unless it just looks obvious.

http://www.credit.com/slp/chapter8/Beware-of-Cash-Advances.jsp

[bkfiler]

ok, but that was MBNA so it was ok lol

"Joan and her bankruptcy lawyer discussed various options. In mid-March, just a few days after using the second MBNA check, she gave her lawyer authority to file bankruptcy on her behalf."

people, people, people... how do i say this...

don't rush into things

p.s. so much for bk planning for this attorney. wonder if he can be sued to letting her do such a dumb arse thing

[FoolAndHisMoney]

ok, but that was MBNA so it was ok lol

"Joan and her bankruptcy lawyer discussed various options. In mid-March, just a few days after using the second MBNA check, she gave her lawyer authority to file bankruptcy on her behalf."

people, people, people... how do i say this...

don't rush into things

p.s. so much for bk planning for this attorney. wonder if he can be sued to letting her do such a dumb arse thing

Yeah, only FOOLS rush in! LOL

[StaciMM]

Living on your credit cards and transfering balances, taking cash advances, or purchasing large items is not the same thing. (You need groceries, don't need $1500 cash or a big screen TV.)

Thoughts to the original poster-have a talk in person with your attorney. If you retained him for BK, even though he didn't file by the deadline, then you were clearly getting ready to file. You SHOULD NOT have been doing anything substantial on your cards. Would have been better to just stop paying them once you knew 100% that you were going to file. Now, you will likely have to repay a portion of those balances back. Regardless of WHEN you ultimately file, it will be very clear and obvious that they were done with no intent to repay. (Since you'd already retained a BK lawyer.)

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Living on your credit cards and transfering balances, taking cash advances, or purchasing large items is not the same thing. (You need groceries, don't need $1500 cash or a big screen TV.)

Thoughts to the original poster-have a talk in person with your attorney. If you retained him for BK, even though he didn't file by the deadline, then you were clearly getting ready to file. You SHOULD NOT have been doing anything substantial on your cards. Would have been better to just stop paying them once you knew 100% that you were going to file. Now, you will likely have to repay a portion of those balances back. Regardless of WHEN you ultimately file, it will be very clear and obvious that they were done with no intent to repay. (Since you'd already retained a BK lawyer.)

You're pretty much correct staciMM.

bkinfoseeker, you may be better off just getting your retainer back (if possible) and when you are ready just hire a different lawyer. Not sure if this would matter though, but in case you are asked under oath when you retained your lawyer (if the question arises) you can answer truthly and save yourself some trouble. Otherwise if the creditor disputes just negotiate reasonable terms. Not sure how it really works, but I know you DON'T want to be in a position in telling the judge a lie and if you tell the truth as you should, the judge will rule that you must pay back those recent advances.

Good luck!