Replacement Value - What Does it Mean??

[ApresMoi]

The fact that you were so detailed means you can back up every single valuation if questioned. You don't have a thing to worry about.

From what I have read, FL is unique in that modus operandi, but even so, having done your homework should give you all the confidence you need going in.

***********

I filed pro se last week (Colorado). I found the personal property valuation to be the most difficult part.

I had done a detailed inventory of what we have and used eBay and Craig's List extensively. I have research to back-up my estimates. I probably gave too much detail but I tend to be obsessive sometimes.

I see a lot of comments here that in Florida the trustees send out personal property appraisers routinely. Does that happen often elsewhere?

Can they do this before the 341 meeting - or will I have warning if the Trustee questions why all of our personal property fell into the exemption limits in Colorado?

Thanks

[ApresMoi]

Btw. This reply made me LOL. :-))

What garage sales are you attending?????
For BK purposes Antique = Old, which means cheap. Don't over value your stuff.

[ColoFiler]

Does the Trustee Investigate?

I filed pro se last week (Colorado). I found the personal property valuation to be the most difficult part.

I had done a detailed inventory of what we have and used eBay and Craig's List extensively. I have research to back-up my estimates. I probably gave too much detail but I tend to be obsessive sometimes.

I see a lot of comments here that in Florida the trustees send out personal property appraisers routinely. Does that happen often elsewhere?

Can they do this before the 341 meeting - or will I have warning if the Trustee questions why all of our personal property fell into the exemption limits in Colorado?

Thanks

[BananaCabana]

we used ebay sales prices to value ours. Just click on "advanced search" and click "closed listings" and it'll tell you the final selling prices of the timeshares on ebay.

Chances are, if you owe money on your timeshare, you're better off just surrendering it now and buying one 2nd-hand off of ebay later. Our timeshare points are only selling for around $100 on ebay. Unfortunately, WE paid $12k for it. I wish we had just bought used in the first place. What a waste! Ours is paid off though.

We originally bought them as resales and only have about $2000 total left on the two. So if I were allowed to ride-through with them it would be a lot cheaper to keep them and pay them off than to buy others when we could buy it outright. That alone could be several years as I will not buy one again with a "mortgage" or "credit". That is the only "big" asset we want to keep other than our van which is underwater a bit and my husband's crappy truck that is completely protected by the exemption amount due to it's crappiness. I guess it really depends on whether the trustee deems them as something he/she wants or not. The TS we are selling now is for $49/pt. But the ones we want to keep would be around $60/pt resale. Different home resorts have different per point values I have noticed.

Thanks for the advice! I am interested in seeing what they have been selling for on Ebay.

[momofthree]

How would you go about valuing a timeshare that you would prefer to try and keep? We had four DVC properties, have sold one, are in the process of selling a second one that was on the market for almost a year at the cheapest price compared to others selling theirs, and we have two others that are almost paid off that we would like to hold onto if we are able.

I have been told trustees do not particularly like timeshares that still have mortgages on them but as these are almost paid off I am a little concerned. But as for valuing them I am not sure how to value them. I guess by what I think I could get by selling it minus fees/commissions and amount owed?

We are still waiting to be sued. Once that happens we will begin the BK process. We will qualify for Ch. 7 and will be surrendering the home. If we must give up the DVC we will but everyone wants to hold onto something and this is the thing I want to hold onto.

we used ebay sales prices to value ours. Just click on "advanced search" and click "closed listings" and it'll tell you the final selling prices of the timeshares on ebay.

Chances are, if you owe money on your timeshare, you're better off just surrendering it now and buying one 2nd-hand off of ebay later. Our timeshare points are only selling for around $100 on ebay. Unfortunately, WE paid $12k for it. I wish we had just bought used in the first place. What a waste! Ours is paid off though.

[momofthree]

Many people don't know how to list and value their property, this is what I use. For that category you can just say Miscellaneous of $XXXX.XX value. The value method is what is called the replacement value. That means if you had to buy at retail what you already own, how much would you pay? The retail merchant will give you two discounts. One for the age of the stuff and two for its condition.

Everything has value using the replacement method.

AGAIN: You use the replacement value. No other valuation method. I will explain the replacement value method again. If you had to buy at RETAIL what you already own (EVERYTHING YOU OWN), how much would you pay at RETAIL? The retail merchant will give you two discounts. One for the age of the stuff and two for its condition.

The only time you deviate from the replacement method is when you are listing how much you have in the bank accounts, the IRA/Pension, or with jewelry that has gone up in value, or with any type of collectible.

I hope this helps.

This is true for INSURANCE purposes.

According to my attorney, this is not the case for bankruptcy. The trustee wants to know what HE can sell your USED junk for. If you put down that your tv has a replacement value of $1500, but he could only sell it for $50, he's not going to be too happy with you when he comes to collect.

They are looking at the value of your estate were it to be liquidated today, not replaced, liquidated.

[BananaCabana]

Timeshare

How would you go about valuing a timeshare that you would prefer to try and keep? We had four DVC properties, have sold one, are in the process of selling a second one that was on the market for almost a year at the cheapest price compared to others selling theirs, and we have two others that are almost paid off that we would like to hold onto if we are able.

I have been told trustees do not particularly like timeshares that still have mortgages on them but as these are almost paid off I am a little concerned. But as for valuing them I am not sure how to value them. I guess by what I think I could get by selling it minus fees/commissions and amount owed?

We are still waiting to be sued. Once that happens we will begin the BK process. We will qualify for Ch. 7 and will be surrendering the home. If we must give up the DVC we will but everyone wants to hold onto something and this is the thing I want to hold onto.

[MrBankruptcy]

Many people don't know how to list and value their property, this is what I use. For that category you can just say Miscellaneous of $XXXX.XX value. The value method is what is called the replacement value. That means if you had to buy at retail what you already own, how much would you pay? The retail merchant will give you two discounts. One for the age of the stuff and two for its condition.

Everything has value using the replacement method.

AGAIN: You use the replacement value. No other valuation method. I will explain the replacement value method again. If you had to buy at RETAIL what you already own (EVERYTHING YOU OWN), how much would you pay at RETAIL? The retail merchant will give you two discounts. One for the age of the stuff and two for its condition.

The only time you deviate from the replacement method is when you are listing how much you have in the bank accounts, the IRA/Pension, or with jewelry that has gone up in value, or with any type of collectible.

I hope this helps.

[Heli]

Between this site Salvation Army Valuation Guide and ebay / craigs list. I was suprised on how little value things were actually worth. Anyway link supplied for those who wish to use it since it's a known source my lawyer seemed to think the trustee would not bat an eye if I was asked how I valued my things , which he doesn't think will happen anyway.

[ApresMoi]

This was one of the more difficult aspects of getting my BK paperwork together. I started out by having someone WHO DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT give me a quote on an antique, but when I got a second opinion that was WAY LOWER than the first valuation, I realized that I really needed to do more research. I finally found a reliable appraisal (for free) through emailing photos to someone, followed up by a telephone consultation. Like medical diagnoses, it pays to get second opinions. That's for items of 'unusual value' (in this case an antique).

All the footwork I did will be worth it. Because if a trustee asks me how I arrived at the valuations for certain items, I will be ready (and confident that I did the right thing and am on solid ground with the valuations).

For all the other stuff, I took an actual inventory. I created 'categories' (furniture, accessories, electronics, clothing, entertainment, etc.) on a spreadsheet, then grouped items below each category (90 books, 35 cds, 15 blouses, etc.).

After I had the inventory sheet together, I went on eBay or google and saw what others were asking for similar items, or what the items sold for, then assigned values based on that. Quite a few items had no value whatsoever (10 year old VCR, for example). I still listed it, but put 'no value'.

I'll leave it up to the attorney's legal staff to figure out how to bunch things up even more than what I did.

I still think I overvalued a lot of stuff, but when the final numbers come back from the attorney, I can always adjust. For example, I counted how many pairs of shoes I had and multiplied by $7, which I now think is at least double what anyone would pay for them at a garage sale. On clothing, my attorney said to imagine everything I owned in large plastic bags, then multiply the number of bags by $50. They are not interested in detail.

In the end, I gave them lots of detail, but made it easy for them as my info was very organized. If they want to take all the electronics and lump them into a single line item, so be it. The detail that I gave them will still come in handy in case there are any questions as to how we arrived at the line item numbers.

This exercise was actually quite helpful. I learned a LOT about what my stuff is worth, and will likely use that for insurance coverage. The stuff isn't worth nearly what I thought, btw. Good to know!

***************

Good thread with good information; thanks.

I just wish there were a site, even on the U.S. Trustee site, that gave some values...much like the tables used for federa taxes and the stuff you donate to charity...can look up lamps and clothes and tvs, etc.

I broke out WAY more items than needed and actually used 4 continuation sheets, to just to show we went the distance on listing everything and helping to keep any flags lowered.

But after I reviewed it, it seems I was placed $75 values for more than half the items, when then raised a flag with ME. ;) I am going back through it now...no way to value 10 year riding lawn mowers and 15 year olf dinning room table set w/ matching china cabinet, etc, etc...

No sites out there that give you some arbitrary numbers to plug in?

[Walter]

Good thread with good information; thanks.

I just wish there were a site, even on the U.S. Trustee site, that gave some values...much like the tables used for federa taxes and the stuff you donate to charity...can look up lamps and clothes and tvs, etc.

I broke out WAY more items than needed and actually used 4 continuation sheets, to just to show we went the distance on listing everything and helping to keep any flags lowered.

But after I reviewed it, it seems I was placed $75 values for more than half the items, when then raised a flag with ME. ;) I am going back through it now...no way to value 10 year riding lawn mowers and 15 year olf dinning room table set w/ matching china cabinet, etc, etc...

No sites out there that give you some arbitrary numbers to plug in?

[ApresMoi]

Thank you. I will take a look at Schedule C and see how that works.

I should add, I only needed the one page for Schedule C. I crammed things in a bit by grouping multiple property descriptions into one box, e.g.,

and more, and just put the subtotals in the other columns, but I still didn't use a continuation sheet, and many people don't even break things out to that amount of detail and still nobody blinks. I just listed,

etc. without even giving individual values, just one total for that row. The Nolo book has a reassuring example which, if I recall correctly, is even less detailed than that.

So, personally, I wouldn't sweat it too much. (-: I only bothered as much as I did because we'd recently moved apartment so it was easy for me to just note bigger items as they went in the moving truck.

[BKInLA]

My attorney stated to me to also use "garage sale" value. I'm using eBay as my online garage sale to determine value.

[mtbc]

I should add, I only needed the one page for Schedule C. I crammed things in a bit by grouping multiple property descriptions into one box, e.g.,

violin ($250), guitars ($180, $100, $25), cameras ($150, $120), home gym ($1,200)

and more, and just put the subtotals in the other columns, but I still didn't use a continuation sheet, and many people don't even break things out to that amount of detail and still nobody blinks. I just listed,

desks, beds, chairs, lamps

etc. without even giving individual values, just one total for that row. The Nolo book has a reassuring example which, if I recall correctly, is even less detailed than that.

So, personally, I wouldn't sweat it too much. (-: I only bothered as much as I did because we'd recently moved apartment so it was easy for me to just note bigger items as they went in the moving truck.

[mtbc]

To agree with others above, certainly don't use insurance value or whatever, nor the value of new versions of your battered old stuff, it's more appopriate to imagine what the trustee would probably get at a regular auction for the actual items, or what you'd have to pay to buy clones of them at some bargain retail outlet for used goods (Goodwill or whatever). For tricky items one idea can be to take it to a local pawnbroker to see what they'd give you for it. It's a difficult question because the law is a bit vague and districts vary in interpretation, what they really want to know is just how much the trustee can probably easily sell it for. Obviously, that isn't legal advice, just my own take on things.

You might find that you're lucky: things are so much cheaper as used, battered goods, that even being generous (e.g., our minivan I valued at $1,500 and just sold at arm's length for $100!) we still came way under the limits, so you may be pleasantly surprised after a good-faith valuation of your used goods.