Court this am-what a freaking joke that was....

[WhatMoney]

For the new posters - here is what pileated said - which rather set me off:

I had the same experience a few years ago and I was pretty sure after watching the court proceedings all morning, that the judge was either in cahoots with the lawyers, or was lazy and just perfunctorily processing cases.

It is easy to get away with this. Appeals are expensive and few debtors can afford them or do successfully handle them pro se.

In my case, if I did not pay the amount due within 30 days, I would be put in jail for contempt of court. Period. It is de facto debtor's prison. There were lots of debtors in the courtroom who were in handcuffs after having been arrested in the middle of the night.

Debtors arrested in the middle of the night, in handcuffs?
sniff sniff

[music12]

and yet pileated saw what he saw and was threatened with jail, and he wasn't the only one.

maybe some investigation into what really goes on is in order.

[catleg]

In reality if debtors could routinely be thrown into prison for contempt..I would be in jail already. Treehugger would be in the next cell. Albacore would be in another. Doesn't happen. Stop scaring people.

It's like saying you can be thrown in jail for speeding or not wearing a seat belt.

You do have to behave around cops and judges that is true. You can't go in screaming "this whole court is out of order".

But being jailed is not a normal remedy for nonpayment of a civil judgment. Note that non payment of taxes can result in criminal charges. Non payment of child support? Maybe. I know that here in NJ that stuff is handled by the county probation dept. But a civil judgment? The remedies for that are against assets only.

[music12]

pileated, i think every district court has a day of the week where they process these things, probably not just in MA but in all states. it just takes a phone call to the clerk's office to find out when. if whatmoney has the time, he could go to the one in his state and report back how many handcuffs were there... but he probably would prefer to spend his day doing other things.

oh, and, pileated, in whichever state you are, i would guess similar things could be happening... maybe you could go to your current local court and see if you can do some pro bono stuff there.

[music12]

i do hope it's not widespread. but the authority to jail someone for contempt is in the state statutes, so the threat is always there even if it's not always acted upon. and i know i was afraid of it after lawyers upon lawyers told me certain things cannot happen in court because they are flat out against the laws, and then these very things happened to me. there is just nothing out there, other than an appeal, that stops judges from doing things that are illegal.

so i hope it's not widespread, and perhaps the fact that nobody on the forum is posting to say they have spent time in jail means that nobody on the forum got jailed, which would be good news.

[pileated]

Can't believe my eyes actually - I don't have a talking computer.

If you are ever in the Boston area, I'll be glad to let you know the courthouse and the day of the week there will be a lot of debtors there.

That will be a real eye-opener for you.

What I posted is not misinformation (or, in other words, a lie).

The judge did order the debt to paid in 30 days. The judge did say that if it was not paid, jail time would result for contempt of court for not obeying his order.

What's more, I am not the only person he said that to.

[WhatMoney]

thanx pileated... i don't think whatmoney is trying to be hostile. he just can't believe his ears. i would probably have said the same thing a few years ago before i knew what the court system really was.

Can't believe my eyes actually - I don't have a talking computer.

I know that no one goes to jail for not paying a judgment in my state, and in several other states I am familiar with, and handcuffs are for accused felons, not debtors. And, other than that old Boston.com article, I've never heard of anyone anywhere claiming it happened to them, for simply not paying a debt after a judgment. I think many newbies are going to be scared sh*tless if they think what is being claimed in this thread is anywhere near common. It borders on misinformation, IMO.

It's actually highly unusual for a court to impose sanctions unless every other avenue has been exhausted after violating a court order. And not paying a judgment is NOT violating a court order. The examples in the boston.com article gave no real details on each case. And if sanctions are given they are small and monetary, not jail time for a $200 sanction.

[pileated]

when you get healthier, i hope you will have the energy to go back to that court and take a case or two pro bono. and go public with it. it would be an incredible service to us all.

I don't live in Mass any more.

[junker]

Florida,s judges are known to be part of the good ole boy syndrome...it is a conservative state... but folks the issue here is .....IF you are going to play the judgment game.... you HAVE TO get prepared.....WHEN you KNOW you are going to get a judgment ...and MOST OF US KNOW WELL IN ADVANCE....and decide not to file bk for whatever reason....YOU have to try and protect your assets..BEFORE..you get that judgment...the Judge only tries to find out if you HAVE anything....the creditors are the ones that have to try and get it....OJ Simpson was a classic case......and he lived in Florida.....he carefully hid or transferred most of his assets BEFORE they got the judgment...and probably still has a lot hidden.....he went to jail for trying to get some of his things back.....NOT...for hiding them....if i remember irght they asked him where some of this stuff was....and he said he couldnt REMEMBER......Florida is very generous on the homestead issue...and head of household...etc...i suspect there is much more to this handcuff thing than is being posted....i was in court in florida with 100 others for cc, suit....and no one was handcuffed....the judge simply said if you admit the debt...i WILL order a judgment against you and 500 bucks attorney fees....

[music12]

thanx pileated... i don't think whatmoney is trying to be hostile. he just can't believe his ears. i would probably have said the same thing a few years ago before i knew what the court system really was.

if i am right, small claims courts don't have jurisdiction to enforce judgments so they don't have jurisdiction to jail anybody. that's why people in handcuffs would typically be in district court rather than small claims.

when you get healthier, i hope you will have the energy to go back to that court and take a case or two pro bono. and go public with it. it would be an incredible service to us all.

[pileated]

hey pileated, did you say you saw this happen in massachusetts? was it district court?

Yes, it was in district court, NOT small claims court.

[pileated]

And if MA small claims is still that bad, move out of the f*cking state ASAP if you have small debts.

It doesn't just happen in small claims court -- it happens in district court, too.

The vast majority of the debtors cannot afford to hire an attorney. That is a big problem, especially with abuses in civil cases.

Moving out of a state is not always an option for debtors, you know.

Why are you so hostile, or am I being too sensitive?

[music12]

what i am saying is that in some cases, if a judge decides that you lied under oath about not having money, then you could be ordered to pay and if you don't comply you get contempt. the creditor's attorney can just say they believe you are hiding something, and if the judge feels like it, he can make a "finding" that you lied and then find you in contempt.

and if you sign an agreement to pay but for whatever reason you can't, you'd be in contempt. i don't see any fundamental difference between this and "simply not paying."

i am not saying it happens all the time or to everyone. i am saying it can happen and has happened, and we just don't know about it.

and no, it's not a crime, that's why you don't get due process. you haven't been charged with anything, after all. you are in civil jail and you don't have the right to remain silent or a right to an attorney.

[WhatMoney]

one of the things that can happen after a judgment is entered is that the debtor is hauled into court to reveal any and all assets they may have, usually after the creditor has exhausted everything else he can think of (garnishment, freezing accounts, etc.). at that point, first if you don't show up you are in contempt and can be arrested. also if the judge decides you are hiding assets you could be in contempt. in my case, i was almost found in contempt for refusing to conduct a trial on a religious holiday (the judge "gave in" by ordering me to pay money instead, big joke).

why do you say none of the MA cases apply? at least one case this guy was jailed for 28 days because that's how long it took his relative to get money together. isn't that being jailed for not paying???

Yes, I mentioned the debtors exam earlier as the most common way to get a contempt of court if you don't show or lie under oath. But that has nothing to do with simply not paying. How is a judge going to decide you are hiding assets? He is not involved in the debtor exam in any way. It is between you and the creditor attorney.

The Haitian guy jailed for 28 days had violated a court ordered payment for a roofing job complaint. He must have signed a repayment agreement when he was sued - it was approved by the court - and he violated it. He was also in trouble with other county courts and had been arrested for drugs earlier. Sounds like he was "targeted".

You should NOT be agreeing to a repayment plan when you go to court. That is ridiculous. Let the judgment holder try to collect the normal way - by finding and seizing your non-exempt assets. Anyone that gets hooked into repayment plan in court is foolish. Again - default judgment debtors don't have this problem.

There are many BK members here that have money judgments on their record and have not paid a dime on them. Has any of them ever been jailed for being judgment proof? You are trying to tell me being "collection proof" and having a judgment is a crime and you can be sent to jail? Please...

Where are the all the judgment holders on this forum? Speak up! How much time y'all done since your judgments?
I can think of a couple dozen regulars on here with judgments - never paid - are they posting from the jail-house?

[music12]

and a court-ordered payment plan could easily be something that the debtor cannot afford. which brings us back to being jailed for not paying a debt.

just because NY and MA may be notorious doesn't mean other states are any better. one day there will be stories coming from other states too.