Need some advice on a Ch7

[so-beyond-broke]

Thanks for the website

Hi Bkfiler:

I read the website but I am still confused about the matter of property between my partner and I since I am the one filing and he's not and we are not legally married. I don't think that common law relationships apply. I keep searching and maybe others can help me out with this question.

sobeyond

ok then you will be filing bk and then the rules are the rules like was mentioned before.

it gets a bit complicated. community property state and things.

read this site to start with to get an idea about the terminology and start searching for your states information.

http://www.moranlaw.net/maritaldebts.htm

[bkfiler]

search for 'bankruptcy' and 'your state name' and 'married' or 'marriage'

[AAAArt]

For the person who asked the question re: landlord owned frig. and stove. No, they are not assets which you should list. You can't sell them any more than you could one of the walls in your apt. Their cost is built into your rent.
Hope this helps, Art

[Minnymouth]

So-beyond-broke,

You have a lot of issues you need to find answers too before you file........

Is your state a community property state??
Do you get child support?
Do you and your partner file income taxes together? Or separate?? Who claims children?
If you are on the lease as a co-tenant, then you are entitled to only half of the rent/utility requirements!
Do any of the debts have his name on as a co-signer? (this would include rent, auto, credit cards, utilities)
If you share expenses, then you are only entitled to half of the expenses allowed on your bk petition...
His income would also be considered household income and part of the "means test".
What state are you in??

Give us some more info and we will try to find answers for you...

Also you need to discuss this with at least 3 attorneys before you file pro se....

[bkfiler]

For the person who asked the question re: landlord owned frig. and stove. No, they are not assets which you should list. You can't sell them any more than you could one of the walls in your apt. Their cost is built into your rent.
Hope this helps, Art

art, you could sell the fridge and stove - bring the landlord by to show her what you did, ask for a bill and then go ahead and list it in the bk

[so-beyond-broke]

Response to Minny

Hi Minny:

Thanks for your input. I live in NY so its not a community property state. I do not need to collect child support because I live with the kids' father who is my partner. I file my taxes and claim the kids because I would get the larger refund. If he files it ends up going to other people and not our household. None of my debts are his and vice versa. I have always kept our finances separate. I never found the need because we are not married. As for the rent everyone in the house has to be listed on the lease. This is what needs to be done in public housing. I pay the rent as always. My name is on the check/money order every month. My partner is not working at the moment and his work history over the last few years has been spotty. Public housing doesn't want to hear that one of the tenants is not working - any one over 18 better pay something in my case that's me. I should be entitled to place the full amount of my rent on the BK filing. Or maybe it would be less problems to not include him since he currently has no income.

so-beyond

So-beyond-broke,

You have a lot of issues you need to find answers too before you file........

Is your state a community property state??
Do you get child support?
Do you and your partner file income taxes together? Or separate?? Who claims children?
If you are on the lease as a co-tenant, then you are entitled to only half of the rent/utility requirements!
Do any of the debts have his name on as a co-signer? (this would include rent, auto, credit cards, utilities)
If you share expenses, then you are only entitled to half of the expenses allowed on your bk petition...
His income would also be considered household income and part of the "means test".
What state are you in??

Give us some more info and we will try to find answers for you...

Also you need to discuss this with at least 3 attorneys before you file pro se....

[SinkingFast]

Not to be nosey or anything So, but how long has SI been outa work?? Has he worked maybe one month in the last 6?? Or maybe not worked at all?? You did say "spotty".

Even though you guys aren't technically married, you have been together a long time and you share children together. You are listed as joint tenants on the lease. I don't see why the Court would not consider you a couple. If that's the case, then........

Since the Means Test is fig'd as an average of income over the last 6 months it may be to your advantage to INCLUDE him. That way you get all the benefits of "passing" the Means Test honestly AND getting all the deductions as well. After all, somebody does have to pay the rent. If he ain't got no money then you MUST be paying the rent. And buying the groceries. And paying the utilities. There's a spot on the Means Test where they take out the partner's income if one partner is filing and the other partner isn't. It's on Line 17. Then you go solo from there for all the rest and you'd probably get the deductions.

On the personal property issue, I'd guess you need to go thru your apt and do an inventory. Things that were yours or you've bought. Things that are his or he bought.

Here's a nifty keeno form I found that will help you gather information together. You can also check out the NY exemptions at that website as well.

http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/application.htm

The form allows you to put your income and sources together in one place. List all you debts. The one section I liked was the household inventory part. You can go room by room and it's set up for the new laws.

[so-beyond-broke]

Thanks sinkingfast

Hi Sinkingfast

That was a nice website. I saved the file to a disk and I will review with time. As for the income question if I was to file today then I would have to list July 2005-December 2005. For those months he worked all of July and August and 1 week in September. The rest of the income was unemployment and he's still out of work. What I mean spotty is that there were many jobs over the years with short stays. We have been together 15 years, but unless you are legally married I doubt that it will count. On the B22A form - I believe this is the 6 page sheet for the means test. Column A is debtor and Column B is for a spouse. Since he's not a spouse I can't list him there. I heard that you should list all wage earners in the home. Is this only earned wages or other sources of income i.e. social security, UIB, welfare etc? Where would you list other income earners on this form? And Why? If you're not married how could the BK court expect or demand that someone's else's income should be considered in the means test to discharge your debts. I am trying to discharge my debts not his. I guess the presumption may be that since people live under the same roof you are automatically entitled to their money. Would this apply to a person who takes in borders into their home and charges room and board. If they were to file Bk, would they have to list all the income from the boarders that they earn? I feel that only the income of the person filing should be considered.

so-beyond-broke

Not to be nosey or anything So, but how long has SI been outa work?? Has he worked maybe one month in the last 6?? Or maybe not worked at all?? You did say "spotty".

Even though you guys aren't technically married, you have been together a long time and you share children together. You are listed as joint tenants on the lease. I don't see why the Court would not consider you a couple. If that's the case, then........

Since the Means Test is fig'd as an average of income over the last 6 months it may be to your advantage to INCLUDE him. That way you get all the benefits of "passing" the Means Test honestly AND getting all the deductions as well. After all, somebody does have to pay the rent. If he ain't got no money then you MUST be paying the rent. And buying the groceries. And paying the utilities. There's a spot on the Means Test where they take out the partner's income if one partner is filing and the other partner isn't. It's on Line 17. Then you go solo from there for all the rest and you'd probably get the deductions.

On the personal property issue, I'd guess you need to go thru your apt and do an inventory. Things that were yours or you've bought. Things that are his or he bought.

Here's a nifty keeno form I found that will help you gather information together. You can also check out the NY exemptions at that website as well.

http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/application.htm

The form allows you to put your income and sources together in one place. List all you debts. The one section I liked was the household inventory part. You can go room by room and it's set up for the new laws.

[SinkingFast]

The new BK law has not provision or definition of family/household unit/dependents listed any where. We are trying to include my Mom who lives with us. Lots of places in the BK law refer back to the IRS, who had a definition of dependents. Census Bureau data is used for the Means Test and the Census Bureau has a definition of a household.

From the IRS Website

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p501....%20exemptions'

Considered married. You are considered married if on the last day of your tax year you and your spouse meet any one of the following tests:
1. You are married and living together as husband and wife.
2. You are living together in a common law marriage that is recognized in the state where you now live or in the state where the common law marriage began.
3. You are married and living apart, but not legally seperated/under a decree of legal divorce or seperation.
4. You are separated under an interlocutory (not final) decree of divorce. For purposes filing a joint return, you are not considered divorced.

NY is not a common law marriage state, but NY does recognize CLM's from other states. It's a reciprocating arrangement among states. Couples who get married in one state will have their legal union recognized by other states if/when they move. If your living arrangement started in a common law marriage state you may be "married" in the eyes of the law in NY.

Otherwise, both the Census Bureau and the IRS consider family/dependents/a household as being comprised of people related by blood and/or marriage.

[so-beyond-broke]

It all started in NY

Hi Sinkingfast;

Well we have been in NY all of our lives and we've never gone to another state where CLM's are recognized, so I guess we are not related by blood or marriage which is ashamed since we've been together for a long time.

so-beyond

The new BK law has not provision or definition of family/household unit/dependents listed any where. We are trying to include my Mom who lives with us. Lots of places in the BK law refer back to the IRS, who had a definition of dependents. Census Bureau data is used for the Means Test and the Census Bureau has a definition of a household.

From the IRS Website

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p501....%20exemptions'

Considered married. You are considered married if on the last day of your tax year you and your spouse meet any one of the following tests:
1. You are married and living together as husband and wife.
2. You are living together in a common law marriage that is recognized in the state where you now live or in the state where the common law marriage began.
3. You are married and living apart, but not legally seperated/under a decree of legal divorce or seperation.
4. You are separated under an interlocutory (not final) decree of divorce. For purposes filing a joint return, you are not considered divorced.

NY is not a common law marriage state, but NY does recognize CLM's from other states. It's a reciprocating arrangement among states. Couples who get married in one state will have their legal union recognized by other states if/when they move. If your living arrangement started in a common law marriage state you may be "married" in the eyes of the law in NY.

Otherwise, both the Census Bureau and the IRS consider family/dependents/a household as being comprised of people related by blood and/or marriage.