Can an illegal immigrant without a social security number file for BK

[Brazzy]

Ran into this not too long ago. Illegal immigrant basically grabbed someone's ssn out of thin air and began using it as their own. Was able to obtain small credit lines (nice right) and was able to build the credit under their name, DOB, and this 3rd party's SSN. As they built the credit, when you ran their credit under their name, dob and 3rd party's ssn a decent history came up. On top of that they had a job using the same criteria. This person was able to obtain an auto loan. They eventually got in over their head and had to file BK. Prior to filing the attorney was able to take the necessary steps to ensure he was in the country legally and was assigned a real tax ID. They then filed chapter 7 and on the petition actually put that they used a 3rd party's SSN.

We were in a bind because the person openly admitted to using a fake SSN, but was already mounting the defense that it wasnt fraud because they had intent on paying the loans back, and for the most part did so up to this point. The attorney made it very clear that they were willing to go the distance to fight any AP case based on that fact. I was confident that we could win the case, but the debts the person had were not large enough to justify the attorney's fees it would take to win the case.

I am over simplifying the scenario, but you get the point... I didnt think it could happen... until then. I guess creditors will give debt to anyone.

[albacore44]

A good friend of mine, a young Latino woman had her Identity stolen. they traced it back to a car dealership where she bought a car, and a car salesman was selling identities to a ring of ilegal Mexicans. I felt so sorry for her, this ilegal alien woman had amassed thousands of dollars in credit card debt and all these bills coming to my friends house. It was interesting because this woman had applied at Costco and got instant approval for an American Express card at one of those ouside tables set up in front of Costco. she went right in and charged several thousand dollars. Costco had kept a copy/photo of the Costco card. i saw the photo, and it was a much older Latino woman.........and yes, the police caught her

[GettingGoing]

Ran into this not too long ago. Illegal immigrant basically grabbed someone's ssn out of thin air and began using it as their own. Was able to obtain small credit lines (nice right) and was able to build the credit under their name, DOB, and this 3rd party's SSN. As they built the credit, when you ran their credit under their name, dob and 3rd party's ssn a decent history came up. On top of that they had a job using the same criteria. This person was able to obtain an auto loan. They eventually got in over their head and had to file BK. Prior to filing the attorney was able to take the necessary steps to ensure he was in the country legally and was assigned a real tax ID. They then filed chapter 7 and on the petition actually put that they used a 3rd party's SSN.

We were in a bind because the person openly admitted to using a fake SSN, but was already mounting the defense that it wasnt fraud because they had intent on paying the loans back, and for the most part did so up to this point. The attorney made it very clear that they were willing to go the distance to fight any AP case based on that fact. I was confident that we could win the case, but the debts the person had were not large enough to justify the attorney's fees it would take to win the case.

I am over simplifying the scenario, but you get the point... I didnt think it could happen... until then. I guess creditors will give debt to anyone.

I fail to see how this is not considered fraud? Using a stolen SSN to obtain credit is fraud. I don't see how "having the intent to pay the debt" makes this not fraud.

[HOMEBODY]

Yes, an illegal person can file for BK even if he used someone's SS number.

He can get an IRS TIN # and get his passport from his country. I saw it with my own eyes and they get discharged.

For some reason, they dont look at the fraud committed or that they are screwing someone's credit with a BK.

[HHM]

One of the reasons using a fake SSN is not fraud for BK purposes (in the narrow context of an illegal immigrant scenario) is that the purpose of obtaining the fake SSN is not related to getting credit. The SSN was obtained to interact in American society. Also, if the person DID make payments, there is no intent to defraud creditors. The person applied for credit, got credit, used credit, made payments, then filed BK. How is that scenario different than ANYONE else who filed BK? The false SSN, by itself, doesn't create fraud.

[GettingGoing]

One of the reasons using a fake SSN is not fraud for BK purposes (in the narrow context of an illegal immigrant scenario) is that the purpose of obtaining the fake SSN is not related to getting credit. The SSN was obtained to interact in American society. Also, if the person DID make payments, there is no intent to defraud creditors. The person applied for credit, got credit, used credit, made payments, then filed BK. How is that scenario different than ANYONE else who filed BK? The false SSN, by itself, doesn't create fraud.

So lets say I happen to find someone selling SSN's linked to high credit scores and I buy one. I only buy it because I need a few cc's and maybe a new car and with my horrible credit I no one will extend the credit to me. Would I not be committing fraud since I had a "valid" reason for doing this?

[wonderingrov]

I think folks are talking about two different things here. Fraud in terms of bankruptcy involves specifically trying to defraud or lie to the bankruptcy court and/or creditors as it relates to getting a discharge of the debts.

Then there is fraud in the broader sense of the term, which would include the stealing or buying of the social security number in the first place.

The two would have to be dealt with in different venues (i.e., the bankruptcy fraud would be dealt with through the bankruptcy courts, with a possible referral to criminal courts - the more general fraud would be more the realm of criminal courts).

[HHM]

I think folks are talking about two different things here. Fraud in terms of bankruptcy involves specifically trying to defraud or lie to the bankruptcy court and/or creditors as it relates to getting a discharge of the debts.

Then there is fraud in the broader sense of the term, which would include the stealing or buying of the social security number in the first place.

The two would have to be dealt with in different venues (i.e., the bankruptcy fraud would be dealt with through the bankruptcy courts, with a possible referral to criminal courts - the more general fraud would be more the realm of criminal courts).

Exactly...I am not saying that it is okay for an illegal immigrant to use a Fake SSN, but that really isn't the point here. The point is, can the illegal immigrant file bankruptcy. Under specific and narrow set of circumstances, yes, that person can.

Certainly, if the person got a fake SSN, got credit using that SSN, and never made a single payment, yes, that is fraud in all contexts, BK, Civil, Criminal, that is not what is in dispute.

However, if the illegal immigrant obtained a fake SSN, but otherwise used it like any other person would use it (put it on applications, obtained credit, paid on that credit, and otherwise acted as if the SSN was valid), but didn't commit any extrinsic fraud, that person can file BK and receive a discharge.

[BCA2009]

How would lying about who you are (someone else's SSN) be any different than lying about how much income you make or whether you are employed.

Haven't I read on here that that was considerd fraud? Or am I also mixing up BK fraud with non-BK fraud?

[HHM]

But in this circumstances, there was no harm to the creditor. In the BK context, the only issue is between debtor and creditor. If you lie about "income", if you said you made more than you did, then the Bank relied on that and extended more credit than it otherwise might.

However, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, if the only lie is a fake SSN, but the debtor for many years operated under that SSN, made payments to the creditor, and otherwise acted as anyone else would, there is no harm to the creditor.

[BCA2009]

I do kinda see what you are saying, but it is really splitting hairs. If the guy that lied about his income made payments for years and had acted and believed as if would pay the loan back, Is that no longer fraud?

And would a lender knowingly lend someone money if they knew the person didn't have a SSN number.

You know much more about the law that I do, but I don't think you could ever convince the reasonable man walking down the street that there is a difference. But that reasonable man doesn't wear a robe and decide cases.

I aloo wouldn't want to be the guy trying to convince the BK court, that it's none of their concern I used a fake SSN. Just sayin' ...

[HHM]

It would still be a difficult case. All I am saying is that a fake SSN, but itself is not fraud by default.

As to you question, if someone lied about income, made payments for several years; it would be very hard for the creditors to prove it was harmed by the fraud.

[BCA2009]

Ok, thanks. That's the cool part about law, it's so cut and dry.

[ja181]

this thread...really..just..wow

[Brazzy]

HHM has it right.. Bottom line is that it is all about the intent. In order to prove fraud you have to prove that the person knowingly took money with no intention of paying it back. Now that SSN did belong to a person and that person's credit was affected by this person's actions. However, straight from a creditor stand point when you file an AP case it has to be air tight as to what the person did, and what they were trying to do every step of the way. Using a fake SSN and taking out loans and just walking away is one thing. However this person had been using the SSN for a while and had been making regular monthly payments for a while. I'm happy that the average person could look at this and see that clearly this scenario is not right. However in bankruptcy court the debtor would have a pretty good chance of coming out of this clean as a whistle. It just puts things in perspective how creditor friendly most districts are. Was it a winnable case? probably, but the legal costs to fight such a case would have been higher than the balance itself. Not an uncommon scenario.