Will they allow this?

[drowningNIL]

i am almost obsessed with the forms and filling in the numbers repeatedly. over median but passed the legalconsumer.com means test but....

I would like to include my kids' school registration fees, library card cost, music and dance lesson costs. The total monthly for these is abt $250 (total) - this includes it all broken down monthly and i have proof i have been paying the lessons etc for years. Not sure if those are acceptable or allowed. What does anybody think? ??

Also, i have a big dog and his food and meds are about $76 a month. I have receipts of that, also. that doesn't even include the yearly vet bill or any incidental vet visits. I couldn't even be so lucky as to hope for those i am sure.


Praying for a 7 but whatever it winds up we'll deal with it.

thanks for any replies.

[tcreegan]

educational expenses

The official means test forms (federal national forms 22a) has a place for educational expenses for your kids: $147 a month per kid.

I have no idea where animal expenses come in.


Good luck with all this,


Tom in Colo

[drowningNIL]

ok thanks.

Line 38 of the means test on legal consumer says "educational fees"......that's why I am wondering...the $250 is not all "educational" kwim?

if i am allowed about $300 for these two kids under 18 am I OK with my $250ish/month? or will they sniff out that I am including activity fees in this monthly amt of about $250? I saw on the J that it's called educational fees or something too.

so i guess i am wondering if i can include the dance, band fees, and music lessons, too? or is that "recreation"? and if it is recreation what would an allowable amt be? i have seen some very low recreation numbers here. $50/mo that i've seen here would not cover the cost of these things for my kids.


thanks

[SMinGA]

It could go either way... Meaning since you are over median, your expenses may be scrutinized more closely than if you were under.

The dance classes, etc. may be challenged. Logic being that they are necessary, and keeping them deprives your creditors. Dog food, etc., on the other hand can probably be worked into the 'misc' portion of the IRS guidelines for grocery, clothing, etc. Unless your actual #s on those expenses push the envelope, you can probably blend pet expenses in w/ groceries and such.

[drowningNIL]

thanks SMinGA.

how much do you think is acceptable or allowable for recreation? (family of 5)

I may just then include the kids activities into that category I guess. It's to the point where we have no fun or dates here anyway. Just want to keep the kids' lives as normal as possible.

thank you for the help and info.

[SMinGA]

My honest opinion, that won't work. Probably $75-100 for entertainment/recreation.

In the long run, though, it might not matter?

When you add up all of your expenses - according to your #s not the means test - and compare to net income, where do you come up? I know you said before you were negative DMI but by how much? If its significant, then the trustee would have to successfully challenge multiple expenses to get you into a ch. 13 range. Like if you're -$900, then $250 activities for your kids is not going to change anything. If you're -$50 however - its a bigger issue.

If you are fairly close for actual dmi without the activities, then compare your figures to the IRS guidelines. Family of 5 on food, housekeeping supplies, apparel & services, personal care, misc is $1633. And an additional $60 (5% extra on food, apparel) can be added when situations warrant it. If your expense totals for these areas come out less, you could possibly inflate each a little to account for some breathing room on other things.

I saw in another post that you have a special needs child. This, I imagine, means you have some expenses higher as a result. If any of the activities are for this child, and either contribute to physical development/social skills therapy/etc. that may be a good argument. (I don't know your situation, just trying to think outside the box a little. I imagine that if this child spends most of his/her time at home, then getting out for physical activity with other kids is pretty important.)

One bottom line you need to consider though: if/when you succeed on the ch. 7, you need to be able to come out the other side on solid ground. If you are really at a negative DMI, you'll have to find some way to cut back on expenses and/or increase income to make it work.