Dischargeable Library Fines?

[sscott4775]

Hi,
I was wondering if library fines, specifically to a university library are dischargeable under CH7?

Thanks!

[empowered]

Hi sscott4775. When my university did not find a book that I believed I had returned, they refused to give me my diploma until I paid a pretty large fee for it. I'm not sure if discharging fines would eliminate this type of practice.

[HHM]

Yes, the debt is dischargeable.

But you may be in for some serious, practical hassle, in dealing with the school. They are not supposed to withhold a diploma or take any actions to try to collect it, but often times, the path of least resistance is to simply pay it and move on.

[sscott4775]

Hi sscott4775. When my university did not find a book that I believed I had returned, they refused to give me my diploma until I paid a pretty large fee for it. I'm not sure if discharging fines would eliminate this type of practice.

Hi empowered,

That's what I've been fearing. It seems to me that if they pull this trick, then that would violate the discharge. I don't see what legal recourse they would have to continue to deny you transcripts/ diploma if it's discharged.

[sscott4775]

Yes, the debt is dischargeable.

But you may be in for some serious, practical hassle, in dealing with the school. They are not supposed to withhold a diploma or take any actions to try to collect it, but often times, the path of least resistance is to simply pay it and move on.

Good to know it's dischargeable. I was concerned that, based upon my understanding of the bankruptcy code, this might fall into a fine from a government entity and would not be discharged.
Hopefully they won't give me any static on this.
Thank you both for the info!

[empowered]

Hey sscott. I'd still use caution no matter which way you go. Haggling with them over the release of diploma or transcripts could hold up applications you may want to submit to jobs or graduate school, even if your position is legally correct. You might want to be prepared for some prolonged bureaucratic hassles of the kind that only the best universities can provide.

[sscott4775]

Hey sscott. I'd still use caution no matter which way you go. Haggling with them over the release of diploma or transcripts could hold up applications you may want to submit to jobs or graduate school, even if your position is legally correct. You might want to be prepared for some prolonged bureaucratic hassles of the kind that only the best universities can provide.

Hi empowered,
That's a good point and based upon my experience in academia, I wouldn't put it past them to hassle me with bureaucratic red tape and jump through a couple of hoops.

[tcreegan]

library fine

Hi sscot4775,

fine from a government entity

This might be technically correct, but I seriously doubt they have the sophistication to employ this.....

....curious, did you name the library or univ. as a creditor and the matrix?

Tom in Colo

SBCC, NMSU, CSU survivor

[empowered]

Hi Tom in Colorado.

Could you please say what "this" is here? I'm unsure as to the meaning of your post.

I think it's interesting that you're asking about whether sscott was thinking of naming the university in his matrix. That occurred to me earlier and I wondered if including a school in a matrix would give the appearance of the debt being an academic loan that cannot be discharged.

Thanks.
(Variably) empowered

[HHM]

Everyone is WAY over-thinking this.

The school (or the library) IS a creditor, and should be listed. The DEBT is dischargeable.

There is NO way this library fine would be considered a student loan and hence be excepted from discharge. The governmental fine issue is interesting, but I think a stretch.

The only real problem is that schools tend to think the BK laws don't apply to them, but they are wrong.

[tcreegan]

schools think they are above the law

Hi all,

Hi empowered, the 'this' was the OP's statement about univ. being govt agencies

HHM has it right:

The only real problem is that schools tend to think the BK laws don't apply to them, but they are wrong

And not just BK laws, any laws that are inconvenient to them!

Tom in Colo

[empowered]

It's still unclear to me what you meant, Tom.

I don't know what OP is.

Also, I'm guessing that your suggestion about whether a university is a governmental agency is meaningful because some governmental debts cannot be discharged? At any rate, that's what I was hoping to have clarified.

Based on my own experience in having my diploma and transcripts withheld until I paid a library fine for a book that I was sure I returned, my initial post suggested that a university might withhold a diploma regardless of Chapter 7 discharge -- no surprise to me.

Lastly, when I made reference to whether confusion might result if the university were listed in the creditor's matrix, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that, if they remained a creditor, they should not be listed. Since university loans cannot be discharged I wondered only if the appearance of a university in the creditor matrix would raise questions as to the nature of the debt. I would imagine some trustees might want to ensure that it was *not* an educational loan that the debtor was trying to discharge.

Anyway, having wrangled with large educational institutions in the past, my inclination would be to pay the fine and move on. But then, I'm assuming that it's not that much money when perhaps it's truly the Mother of All Library Fines.

[tcreegan]

Hi empowered, Hi all,

OP = original poster

You are not confused, you posted what I meant:
Also, I'm guessing that your suggestion about whether a university is a governmental agency is meaningful because some governmental debts cannot be discharged? At any rate, that's what I was hoping to have clarified.

HHM has it right, this is way over-thinking the issue. Just throw the univ. in your creditor matrix and move on. You have it right on the easiest path is to just pay it and not fight the great bureaucracy that most great universities seem to be built upon. My complaint is that Univ.s and HOAs somehow think they are above the law.

When I was dealing w/ the univ. I had keep repeating my brother Ed's law: Never attribute to malice that which is easily explained by incompetence.

Tom in Colo