Son's Coins?

[PushRestart]

I have a question about a child's coin collection. My 7 year old son has been collecting coins for a couple years. He doesn't have anything that's very valuable. Mostly common type coins and some commemoratives. He's rec'd some as gifts from family members over the last couple years as well.

I went through it today and anything that wasn't a modern standard circulation coin (which I estimated as face value), I looked up on eBay to see what people were paying for them. After adding up all the face value coins and the prices I got from eBay, I come up with a general resale value of about $700.

How is something like this handled? My wife and I don't have much of value in our home either. We have a car worth about $1400 that we want to keep, furniture and other property (appliances, clothes, electronics...) are worth about $3500. Would my son be able to keep the coins? He is VERY attached to them and it would be horrible taking them away. We live in NY and I know we have a total of $5000 of exempt property allowed per person but not sure if something like coins are not allowed to be kept at all.

As a coin collecter and past dealer, I can tell you that retail on coins is very, very far away from what coins will bring if you take them to a store to sell or sell on Craigslist. In many cases, coins are only worth melt value (silver value for example) and even then, most dealers will pay as little as 50-60% of melt, so you really have to ignore retail values. An average collection that cost $700 retail might easily sell for $100-150 at a store, the rare exception being if you had one coin that retailed for $700 which might then sell for more than the collection you described.

[Rebel]

My 18-year-old son lives with us, and my understanding of what my attorney said about his belongings is that, if my son paid for something with his own money, it is not to be included in our listing of assets. I assume that would include any collection he has paid for. However, I find it interesting that you mention furniture should not be listed, since a piece of furniture is definitely a household item. I was planning to list the furniture in my son's bedroom that we had purchased, but maybe I don't have to? I had not thought about his clothing- I don't believe he has paid for a single item of clothing that he wears, but I guess they would be considered 'gifts' and owned by him. Conversely, my son owns some computer and gaming equipment, and a big screen TV, that he paid for with his own money that I did not plan to include on the list, based on what our attorney said. Maybe this situation can not be compared to Flamingos' because my son is no longer a minor? He turned 18 6/15/2010. I'm assuming he would be listed as a dependent on our 2010 tax return, but am not sure about that, or if that would be the last year, or if he would continue to be a dependent as long as he is living with us. I am also confused as to how to handle the income aspect of this situation- my son just started a part time job and I had planned for him to contribute reasonable portion of his wages toward household expenses, such as his portion of the cell bill, auto insurance, food, etc. Does his entire income get included in the total household income used to calculate DMI, or just the portion he would be giving to us? Since the job is new, there is no way to calculate a 6-month average. And what happens when and if he moves out within the 3 year pay-out period? Would we have to pay to revise a new plan? I will have to consult our attorney about this at some point, but am wondering if anyone living in NY have experience with this type of situation?

[debee]

As long as your child's coin collection or other property is genuinely his (and not something you transferred to him as a fraudulent conveyance to keep it from the trustee) the trustee has no claim to it.

This is my understanding as well.

If the boy bought his own coins with his birthday money, Christmas money, extra money he earned weeding, etc., then they are his property. Property in your keeping owned by another.

[Rebel]

Had a recent conversation with my attorney and want to share what he said because it sheds a different light on how the NY personal property exemption works. First of all, the exemption is NOT doubled for a married couple- $5000 is all we get. This $5000 exemption covers household items only- furniture, dishes, books, etc.- and the other items specifically stated, like a watch (to $35) and wedding ring, and also tools of the trade (to $600). Everything else, including other jewelry, collectibles, more than one TV, books over $50, and so forth, are nonexempt assets and need to be listed in detail. Because we are filing Chapter 13, we should be able to keep all these nonexempt assets, providing their total value does not exceed the amount we will be able to pay back through Chapter 13. In other words, the Creditors must receive at least as much through 13 as they would have if we filed Chapter 7 and the trustee sold all our nonexempt assets. Hope this explanation is helpful.

[Flamingo]

No, that's not accurate. Minor's can't enter into legal agreements respecting their property. But they can and do own the equitable rights to their own property. They can't exercise any legal control of their property (such as selling, leasing or gifting it), except through a natural or legal guardian. But it's completely innacurate to say that a minor's property is "really" the property of the parent.

As long as your child's coin collection or other property is genuinely his (and not something you transferred to him as a fraudulent conveyance to keep it from the trustee) the trustee has no claim to it.

We were specifically told that only our child's furniture, clothing and personal incidentals were not to be listed on our paperwork for filing. This is for a child living with the debtors and being claimed as a dependent on the debtor's tax return. Any collections of any value that were hers would be considered part of the household contents, including any custodial savings in her name, jewelry, etc. If it is a household item, and a minor's possessions are part of the household, and has sale value, the parents (debtors) have access to those items and could sell the items making the items an asset. If the collection were lost in a house fire and claimed as a loss, the parents would receive the check for the loss, not the minor (to give an example as it was given to us). One needs to specifically speak with their attorney when it comes to any specific items "possessed" by their minor children as to gifts, collections, etc.

[AngelinaCat]

Yea, and we promised to pay back the banks and credit card companies, too, but we're all here because we didn't, no?

You are trying to split hairs and you know it.

[MSbklawyer]

I thought of that but isn't a minor's property really the property of the parents?

No, that's not accurate. Minor's can't enter into legal agreements respecting their property. But they can and do own the equitable rights to their own property. They can't exercise any legal control of their property (such as selling, leasing or gifting it), except through a natural or legal guardian. But it's completely innacurate to say that a minor's property is "really" the property of the parent.

As long as your child's coin collection or other property is genuinely his (and not something you transferred to him as a fraudulent conveyance to keep it from the trustee) the trustee has no claim to it.

[drowning123]

Because you are required to be truthful. And you take an oath at your 341 that everything in your paperwork is 'true and correct'.

Yea, and we promised to pay back the banks and credit card companies, too, but we're all here because we didn't, no?

[AngelinaCatHub]

I doubt that even IF worth $700, the Trustee will not bother with it. He deals with thousands not pennies that the collection to him for all the trouble he would have to go through, making you an asset case over a child's hobby. Picture the Judge seeing a Trustee taking a kids toy at Christmas. List all and be 100% honest, but take the collection with you and if asked at your 341, show it. The whole room would be on your side. You are too concerned over nothing at all. The Trustee will not bother with a kids coin collection. 'Hub

[AngelinaCat]

Good lord, buster. They don't know what's in your house unless you tell them. Why would you mention your child's collection for no good reason? Because you want to be "honest'? I don't understand you folks sometimes. No one is coming to your house to search through your things.

Because you are required to be truthful. And you take an oath at your 341 that everything in your paperwork is 'true and correct'.

[drowning123]

Good lord, buster. They don't know what's in your house unless you tell them. Why would you mention your child's collection for no good reason? Because you want to be "honest'? I don't understand you folks sometimes. No one is coming to your house to search through your things.

[tcreegan]

Hi Rebel,

Some states have both a $ total limit and a $ per item limit on exemptions. NY has a few single item limits, 60 day food for domestic animals limited at $450, books limited to $50, a watch limited to $35..

Your post is proof that a good local BK attorney can be worth their weight in retainer fees....they know the local trustees and how they operate! A general rule of thumb is to give your attorney every bit of info you can find, even if they only use a fraction of it, they can be prepared for anything, no surprises down the road....

...and unlike birthdays, surprise parties in a BK usually aren't as much fun

Tom in Colo

[Rebel]

Hi, Tom- I was pleased to have you mention that the personal property exemption in NY is double for joint filers- that had not occurred to me. I was brought to this page because of my own similar question concerning what types of items the personal exemption covers- NY itemized list includes wedding band, for instance, but not engagement ring, so I wasn't sure if an engagement ring could be taken and sold, even if the total value of our personal property, including the ring, was under the $10,000 limit. I also thought i read somewhere that it makes a difference if a single item is worth more than $400, but not sure where.... I will say that the attorney we consulted with has told us in no uncertain terms that a detailed list of personal property is definitely required. He stated that the trustee, in one meeting with a group of debtors, announced to the 'class' that if the pencil he was holding was owned by the debtor, it had better be on the list. The attorney then told the trustee that if that was required of his clients, he would quit, and there would then be no BK attorney on our side of the city. :0 Anyway, we can group common items, but the list is still supposed to be detailed and complete. Detailed list aside, everyone would agree that all personal property my husband and I own (we are filing jointly) would be exempt if the total value of all property was not more than $10,000?

[buster123]

Thanks Tom. That's what I was thinking but wanted to ask.

[tcreegan]

Hi buster123,

After adding up all the face value coins and the prices I got from eBay, I come up with a general resale value of about $700.

....you are going above and beyond what is required, up in the wild blue yonder.

Unless you live in Florida, a detailed list of personal property is not required. And when you estimate the value, do as 2manybills said, garage sale prices. Used stuff. Most people over-value their stuff. The kids coin collection is small potatoes...NY personal property exemption is $5,000, doubled for joint filers so you have $10,000 to work with.

There are some single item limits: $35 watch, $50 books, $450 livestock w/ feed ...but no coin collection limits.

...they won't take your (kids) last dime...

Tom in Colo