Line 45 of Means Test - Online Calculator Glitch?

[ValleYum]

When using the NOLO Means Calculator, your 'Total Deductions for Debt Payment' amount includes the Average Monthly Administrative Expense of Chapter 13 case as part of the amount for determining your 'Total of All Deductions'.

When reading through the Line by Line instructions on the Means Test here: http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...ne_by_line.pdf; it never really says whether this computation is only for those going into Chapter 13 or if it is simply a given formulaic number that is part of a Chapter 7 filer's deductions for Means Testing purposes.

My attorney's office sent me the PDF file of my Means Test that they had computed to compare to my attempt at a Means Test after our last meeting. Their server had 'lost' the newest update to Best Case just before my visit thus precipitating my receiving it via e-mail. They have 0.00 in the field for Line 45 whilst the NOLO Calculator has the calculated Administrative Costs based on lines 42, 43, and 44 multiplied by the current multiplier for my district.

This number can be fairly large if you have a mortgage and cars and other secured debt and I was thinking that if you are trying to decide whether or not to file bankruptcy, it may make you confident of being able to file a Chapter 7 when you truly can't. According to the attorney's calculations, I am still able to file Chapter 7 without it BUT it is driving me crazy in not knowing this information.

So which is correct? On the 22A, does a Chapter 7 filer list the hypothetical cost or not when computing the 'Total Deductions for Debt Payment" on line 46?

Apologies if this is already asked and answered somewhere else on the forum - I did search and did not find it elsewhere.

~V~

[ValleYum]

LOL I must post very arcane questions cuz I sometimes kinda feel like the last kid picked in gym class with my posts.

[debee]

That's funny. Link to another thread on line 45: http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...Admin-Expenses

eta: If you pass the means test without the calculation, you don't need to do it. If you haven't passed the means test, by this point, you do need to do it.

[ValleYum]

That's funny. Link to another thread on line 45: http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...Admin-Expenses

eta: If you pass the means test without the calculation, you don't need to do it. If you haven't passed the means test, by this point, you do need to do it.

Thank you debee!!

I must need some 'forum search' lessons because I swear I tried all of those words and never found that thread. ::blush::

According to the thread you referenced, that number appears to impact your DMI for the Means Test in a Chapter 7. Wonder why my attorney left it as a 0.00 on theirs? Oh, the things in a BK that make you go "Hmmmmm"!!

[debee]

I get weird results when doing forum searches too. This link takes you to a free preview of Nolo's bk book. Page 218 explains line 45.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aItYLFlMpEkC&pg=PA218&lpg=PA218&dq=means+test+line+45&source=bl&ots=JNwxJdhLTA&sig=VzJxDimancPUHeWA21b5Ddni0Aw&hl=en&ei=oRr9TI71BpCqsAOq7Kj3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=means%20test%20line%2045&f=false

[tcreegan]

Hi ValleYum, Hi debee,

line 45 is only for folks filing Ch 13....Ch 7 people leave it blank (or 0.00)

Tom in Colo

[ValleYum]

I want to thank you both, debee & Tom. You guys are the greatest!!

[debee]

line 45 is only for folks filing Ch 13....Ch 7 people leave it blank (or 0.00)

If you look at form 22a (means test for chapter 7 filers) you can see that in order to fill out section VI (which is the second test to determine if the presumption of abuse arises) you need line 45 filled in.

Start at line 55 ... to do 55, you need 51, to fill in 51 you need 50, to fill in 50 you need 49 & 48, to fill in line 49, you need 47, to fill in 47 you need 46, and to fill in 46 you need 42, 43, 44, and - tada! - 45.

Form 22a: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...W_oSmUC50hNt7w

OP must not have fallen into the "grey zone" between $6575 and $10950, so she didn't need to use trustee fees to reduce her CMI in order to pass the means test.

[tcreegan]

...but debee it just doesn't seem right putting Ch 13 stuff on a Ch 7 form....whine...

Actually the 'add em up' isn't what makes you right (you can always add a zero) but the UST line-by-line says to put in a 'hypothetical' Ch 13 payment

So you are still right, as usual!

Tom

[debee]

Actually the 'add em up' isn't what makes you right (you can always add a zero)

You're talking like a squirmy lawyer now. Here's my squirm: the 'add em up' is the justification for line 45 because in order to make the secondary determination of presumption of abuse at line 55 (which is the whole point of the section) all the preceding lines have to be completed. Whether line 45 sums to zero or not, it has to be summed. You can't just make it a zero. Some of the people who complete this section of the means test will not be able to file for chapter 7. Some will, even with a value at line 45. Easy to forget that the means test is a test.

I get that the UST instructions work better as a proof for you. I just went through the form and found the 'seeing is believing' argument right there. Both work as proofs. But my Dad can still beat up your Dad.

[tcreegan]

....you meany, my Dad is a little old man in Florida! Underweight too, doctor told him to put on as much weight as I need to take off.....not as much fun taking him out to dinner

[debee]

....you meany, my Dad is a little old man in Florida ...

Nice place to be a little old man. Mine is already gone. I was just being silly. I'm sure your old guy can take a ghost!