Updates on progress towards Chapter 7 -- and questions/input requested?

[new2B]

sw, LOL.

Research that attorney like you'd research your favorite puchase (shoeselectronicswineEDUCATIONvacationssportsequip ment) anything you are passionate about. Yes, YOU can do it- but why should you. The attorney needs to prove themself to you. Not you to them.

Best to you- GL.

[sillywalks]

...better safe than sorry.

1) For me, I thought first about settling. Then I realized that not everybody would settle with me. Far from it! So, ok, I'm going to have to defend a suit or two. Allright! I'm pumped! I am a researching fool.


2) I realized, I will spend the next 10 months of my life totally focused on defending myself. Every spare minute. I will become a pro se lawyer first, everything else second.


3) Then I think about the realities: I will settle, for a real pittance, with some; for more than I can realistically afford (which is a pittance) with a few; and then will spend every waking minute dealing with two. Hours and hours, months and months.


4)


5) So I begin to think. Why am I doing this to myself? I will have no life. The amount of money I will pay an experienced attorney to deall with this is a PITTANCE compared to what money, and, hear me carefully, TIME I will spend going the other way. My credit is shot either way. It may improve after BK. I am done the day I retain my attorney.

6) Retain! Call my creditors, let them know, they wish me luck (in most cases. And calls stop. And worrying about them stops.) All my questions sre being answered at the attny's office, which would be of great benefit to you in your situation: suddenly, you have an expert on call.

7) I DO suggest interviewing your attorney choices very carefully. Pay attention to your instincts. Get recommendations.

8) Once you are done choosing and retaining your attorney, your life is your own again in some crucial ways.

And remember, I am a fairly simple case. I could have filed pro se. I DIDN'T, and I am happy.

You are wise for one so young! <g> I think I have thrown in the towel and will commence searching for an attorney. I thought I had found one, but he will not work out after all. Back to the search!

I have to admit, I love learning and enjoy researching (in fact, I am hoping to go back for my Doctorate in 2013 -- one more reason I am hoping to avoid Chapter 13!). But, you (and the many others suggesting using an attorney) are ultimately right -- I have better things to spend my time on right now, including studying for the GRE (again). At least I feel like I understand enough that I will be able to communicate intelligently with my attorney to be sure we are on the same page.

I've set the ball rolling towards setting up initial consultations, ugh, and hopefully I will find someone fairly quickly so I can resolve the Subaru situation.

Thanks! Glad the attorney worked out for you!

[new2B]

New2B --

Thanks for responding. I have done extensive research and feel I could file pro se in many instances -- BUT! -- I am leaning more and more towards using an attorney. There is a good chance I will use an attorney and say afterwards that I could have done it on my own, but I guess it's better safe than sorry, right? I still have cash from my tax return (waiting to end of month to spend it, to be sure no more bit expenses pop up) -- I can use it to pay for the attorney. <bleah> Now the pain of trying to find a good one....

...better safe than sorry.

1) For me, I thought first about settling. Then I realized that not everybody would settle with me. Far from it! So, ok, I'm going to have to defend a suit or two. Allright! I'm pumped! I am a researching fool.


2) I realized, I will spend the next 10 months of my life totally focused on defending myself. Every spare minute. I will become a pro se lawyer first, everything else second.


3) Then I think about the realities: I will settle, for a real pittance, with some; for more than I can realistically afford (which is a pittance) with a few; and then will spend every waking minute dealing with two. Hours and hours, months and months.


4)


5) So I begin to think. Why am I doing this to myself? I will have no life. The amount of money I will pay an experienced attorney to deall with this is a PITTANCE compared to what money, and, hear me carefully, TIME I will spend going the other way. My credit is shot either way. It may improve after BK. I am done the day I retain my attorney.

6) Retain! Call my creditors, let them know, they wish me luck (in most cases. And calls stop. And worrying about them stops.) All my questions sre being answered at the attny's office, which would be of great benefit to you in your situation: suddenly, you have an expert on call.

7) I DO suggest interviewing your attorney choices very carefully. Pay attention to your instincts. Get recommendations.

8) Once you are done choosing and retaining your attorney, your life is your own again in some crucial ways.

And remember, I am a fairly simple case. I could have filed pro se. I DIDN'T, and I am happy.

[sillywalks]

Just an update, though more input is appreciated. My tenant in the basement who is buying a house -- she emailed me today to let me know the house she wanted fell through, and she will be staying (assuming I extend the 12 month rental agreement). I am inclined to extend the contract, though that does mean I have to put the $650 back in my numbers -- I think it will still work.

[sillywalks]

A thought.. how much will this lawyer charge per hour? (And how detailed will they want to be, as you are not filing through them, so they cannot be liable for your goofs?)

Look at it this way. You fill out all the forms. You go in, and an hour at $150.00 per hour turns into two hours. You don't hear what you want to hear ("this is great! file it!"), and have to revise. And go back- at $150.00 and hour.

You file. Run into problems. Now you have to hire your attorney to defend you. Now the charge is $250.00 an hour for meeting with the trustee, or whatever the attorney charges for working on a case vs. advising in office.

Find a lawyer, give them $1500, filing fees. Take their advice! Maybe the attorney will lay out for you exactly how to proceed so you do not lose anything!

Do you want a ch. 7? Well, what if you file pro se, and the trustee says, no it's 13 for you. And gets into your business in a very real and intrusive way. You can't back out. You can't argue or disagree. It's the trustees call. Now, you are stuck, right? Or, you have to find an attorney to help you work out the mess. ($$) And it probably is not entirely fixable, in a way that is advantageous to you.

I am a person with questions myself, not an attorney or in any way a legal adviser of any sort. This post is just my regular-person 2 cents. I have to say, though, that if I had the issues you are describing, I'd be terrified of proceeding on my own. I'd think twice about acting pro se on a no-assett BK! I do know that any time your family is involvede in any of your loans, etc., you are closely looked at. Scary.

New2B --

Thanks for responding. I have done extensive research and feel I could file pro se in many instances -- BUT! -- I am leaning more and more towards using an attorney. There is a good chance I will use an attorney and say afterwards that I could have done it on my own, but I guess it's better safe than sorry, right? I still have cash from my tax return (waiting to end of month to spend it, to be sure no more bit expenses pop up) -- I can use it to pay for the attorney. <bleah> Now the pain of trying to find a good one....

[new2B]

A thought.. how much will this lawyer charge per hour? (And how detailed will they want to be, as you are not filing through them, so they cannot be liable for your goofs?)

Look at it this way. You fill out all the forms. You go in, and an hour at $150.00 per hour turns into two hours. You don't hear what you want to hear ("this is great! file it!"), and have to revise. And go back- at $150.00 and hour.

You file. Run into problems. Now you have to hire your attorney to defend you. Now the charge is $250.00 an hour for meeting with the trustee, or whatever the attorney charges for working on a case vs. advising in office.

Find a lawyer, give them $1500, filing fees. Take their advice! Maybe the attorney will lay out for you exactly how to proceed so you do not lose anything!

Do you want a ch. 7? Well, what if you file pro se, and the trustee says, no it's 13 for you. And gets into your business in a very real and intrusive way. You can't back out. You can't argue or disagree. It's the trustees call. Now, you are stuck, right? Or, you have to find an attorney to help you work out the mess. ($$) And it probably is not entirely fixable, in a way that is advantageous to you.

I am a person with questions myself, not an attorney or in any way a legal adviser of any sort. This post is just my regular-person 2 cents. I have to say, though, that if I had the issues you are describing, I'd be terrified of proceeding on my own. I'd think twice about acting pro se on a no-assett BK! I do know that any time your family is involvede in any of your loans, etc., you are closely looked at. Scary.

[sillywalks]

I dont believe an attorney will review paperwork you hand them - ask them questions - then you go file it pro-se unless you have a friend who's an attorney experienced in Ch 7 & 13 Bk. Generally you consult with an attorney (free or paid), run quick numbers (i.e., yearly income to quick means test based on that #), give a generalized figure of debts owed, asset values, and then you get a ballpark best "guesstimate" of either Ch. 7 or 13. You dont get to the actual paperwork (schedules, etc) until after you've hired your attorney, at which that point you fill it all out and then they'll go over it. Corrections will be made accordingly prior to filing.

Or at least thats how its worked for us...

I think the bigger picture that is being looked at is that one moment you're stating things are loans and are to be paid inside of your BK, then you're turning it around in the next sentence (sorry... ) same goes for your renter - either you are the landlord and are collecting rents or they are a roommate, splitting the bills/expenses equallly, but you cant keep switching it up to suit the situation or issue that someone else questions or may see an issue with. Thats why I included Des's link on collecting rent and while it does pertain to rental properties, you either have a lease agreement with your renter that states $650 per month for XX months - OR - they are your roommate and things will be counted differently. A whole 'nuther issue in itself.

I cant speak for anyone else on here - only myself - and in trying to help you possibly see areas where a trustee or even a lawyer would have issue. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not even a paralegal - hell I'm just a SAHM who hates to see people get themselves in a position they may not be able to get out of. Life is hard enough as it is without adding additional stress to it.

I have no other suggestions for ya Silly - I hope it all works out the way you want it to hun. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

You could be right about the attorney, but I am going to try to find someone who will do it this way. I just don't see the point of paying someone to fill out forms I have already filled out. Check the figures and amounts used, sure!

I don't mean to be inconsistent -- it just seems with the car recently purchased but the title not being filed, I still have some options as to how the Subaru is/is not included in my bankruptcy. With the Subaru, everyone has said it is such a major problem to have my mom provide financing -- so to avoid that problem I am looking at ways for the whole car thing to be between my son and mom until after my bankruptcy, at which point I will begin to repay my mom for the loan. Does that make sense? Then it seems the Subaru would be 'outside' of the bankruptcy, not causing a red flag for the trustee because the car will be between my mom and son, therefore no 'loan' to me. I will simply be on the honor system to repay the $15K to her after the bankruptcy is over. It seems to me that would make the 'family loan' red flag and the 'new debt' red flag disappear in a completely legal and above-board way. It then becomes my choice after the bankruptcy to pay my mom back for the money she paid for the car. (Btw, my son will pay for part of the car -- he is selling a gun he owns and will give that to my mom -- about $2000 -- plus he is hoping to get a better paying job this summer and will make small payments then as well). I hope that does not add to the inconsistency?

Again, although I was considering getting myself a lower mileage car before bankruptcy (using a financing company with my mom getting the loan), when my son's car was deemed unsafe for daily use that plan changed. I don't know if I would have ended up getting the car for myself (without the impetus) or not -- I had put it off for 3 months already. And yes, I was thinking that having a car payment would not hurt my numbers (and give perhaps some comfort), but it definitely would not have been necessary once I found out my tenant would be leaving next month. I had also thought that if something went terribly wrong and I was pushed into a Chapter 13, it would be better to already have a vehicle than to have to purchase one while in the 13.

As to the tenant -- she IS a renter, not a roommate. We have a contract. She gave me her 30 day notice last week, as she is buying a house. In the contract, we specified she could give 30 days notice, although really she is only leaving about 12 days before her 12 month contract would be up anyway. I'm not sure how that got confused -- my only question with the basement is whether or not it will raise a red flag if I do not re-rent the basement before the bankruptcy, since I would like to re-rent it eventually. As to my income, I AM counting the rent she paid in my 6 month look-back -- but I am not currently counting it in my 'future income', since she is leaving in a few weeks (and I hopefully won't file before May). Is that still confusing? I don't remember saying she was a roommate, but it is entirely possible I said something confusing -- especially considering the new rush of anxiety the whole car debacle has brought on!

[Pandora]

I dont believe an attorney will review paperwork you hand them - ask them questions - then you go file it pro-se unless you have a friend who's an attorney experienced in Ch 7 & 13 Bk. Generally you consult with an attorney (free or paid), run quick numbers (i.e., yearly income to quick means test based on that #), give a generalized figure of debts owed, asset values, and then you get a ballpark best "guesstimate" of either Ch. 7 or 13. You dont get to the actual paperwork (schedules, etc) until after you've hired your attorney, at which that point you fill it all out and then they'll go over it. Corrections will be made accordingly prior to filing.

Or at least thats how its worked for us...

I think the bigger picture that is being looked at is that one moment you're stating things are loans and are to be paid inside of your BK, then you're turning it around in the next sentence (sorry... ) same goes for your renter - either you are the landlord and are collecting rents or they are a roommate, splitting the bills/expenses equallly, but you cant keep switching it up to suit the situation or issue that someone else questions or may see an issue with. Thats why I included Des's link on collecting rent and while it does pertain to rental properties, you either have a lease agreement with your renter that states $650 per month for XX months - OR - they are your roommate and things will be counted differently. A whole 'nuther issue in itself.

I cant speak for anyone else on here - only myself - and in trying to help you possibly see areas where a trustee or even a lawyer would have issue. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not even a paralegal - hell I'm just a SAHM who hates to see people get themselves in a position they may not be able to get out of. Life is hard enough as it is without adding additional stress to it.

I have no other suggestions for ya Silly - I hope it all works out the way you want it to hun. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

[sillywalks]

silly

have you read Des' thread on collecting rents after filing CH. 7? If not, you should.

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...-7-A-Must-Read

Thanks for the link, Pandora. I looked at it. I'm not sure exactly how it will apply to my situation. I was/am for another few weeks renting out the basement of my primary residence, which I intend to pay and stay through (I think that's right). I am current on the mortgage. I don't believe there is any equity in the house, though I plan on having it appraised soon just to have actual figures on paper for the court. I don't know if what is discussed in the link will apply, since it seems mostly to deal with rental property or property given up in bankruptcy.

[sillywalks]

Silly,

As to your questions / concerns (in order)

No one said trustee's were reasonable when it comes to debtors discharging thousands of debt. Again, what you may deem as reasonable, fair and just does not constitute the trustee agreeing with you unfortunately.

The 15K: while you may have borrowed the money from her - essentially it is for your son's benefit, therefore your son should work something out with his grandmother to repay the loan. Legitimacy resides in the law, and you did not purchase this car for YOUR benefit or usage like most people who purchase a car prior to filing BK do.

Your son doesnt live with you, he has a job, pays his own rent, etc - and while you can contribute some towards assisting him, you are essentially trying to write off an entire payment done for his benefit in order to bring your DMI lower. Or at least..thats how it reads when reviewing your posts.

As to any suggestions - yes, as myself and others have stated you really need to consult with reputable legal counsel before you get into a position that you cannot get out of.

With all that being said, if you actually do plan on hiring an attorney to file then you're doing all of this essentially for nothing because thats what you hire legal representation to do on your behalf. They will tell you what your options are based on what is set forth before them, its their job. It really does sound like you're trying to plan all of this yourself and file pro-se, which in your case would be a huge mistake given everything you've done thus far to this point.

Pandora --

Hopefully you can see from the numbers I posted that I am not overly concerned with my DMI -- I'm well in the negative without the car payment. My son is a college student who lived with me until January -- he is still legally considered part of my household. As my dependent, I do feel responsible for helping him secure reliable transportation, something that will get him through school, and possibly graduate school. As his mom, I borrowed the money to have another car -- it just happens that he will be driving that car. If I could have found a different car that was as good of a deal, I would have gotten that car and let him drive my 2001 Camry. It just happens that this car was a great deal and much more to his taste, and his car died before mine did. If mine had died first, I would have leaned more towards a vehicle that would be more useful for me. Actually, my plan was to get a car for myself, with my mom signing for financing for me and my paying the finance company. When my son's car went dead, I thought (for a moment) about getting him a less reliable ride and a newer car for me -- then realized it would make more sense to just get a reliable ride for him and to put another $1000 or so into my car to be sure it is able to run for a while longer. I thought that ultimately it would be wiser financially to do it this way, because the vehicles I was looking at would have cost $20-25K from what I researched. Obviously, at some part in the whole time-consuming, frustrating process of finding a car, the consideration that my mom providing the financing herself would be a problem did not cross my awareness. At the time (being unable to get financing on my own), it seemed a godsend.

As to filing pro-se, I would prefer to do that, honestly. My plan has always been to consult with an attorney, hopefully with as much of the paperwork done as possible so that I could keep my time with him/her very short. Basically, hand them my completed paperwork and have them review it and help me make any corrections needed, then go to court on my own. If, of course, the attorney says I really need them fully involved, I would do that - but I'd rather save the money, ironic as that may seem.

[Pandora]

silly

have you read Des' thread on collecting rents after filing CH. 7? If not, you should.

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?68110-Collecting-Rents-After-Filing-A-Chapter-7-A-Must-Read

[Pandora]

.... It's just frustrating, because what would seem 'reasonable' to most does not seem to fall into the 'reasonable' category with the trustee!

At this point, mom has not 'given' me the $15K - she loaned it to me with the agreement I will pay it back as I said. There has to be a way to make that loan show as being legitimate to the trustee, doesn't there? That is the frustrating thing -- it IS legitimate, I really did BORROW the money -- so the Subaru does not have $15K in equity, so how can the trustee say it does? If mom is listed as a lien holder on the title, they cannot simply take the car, can they?


Regarding income -- my son does have income, but does not contribute to any household expenses while he is in school. He does well to pay his rent, food, and gas! I cover his health and car insurance, plus help with gas, food, and medical expenses as needed. Thankfully, he's pretty healthy, except for needing about $1000 in dental work soon.


Any suggestions? ...

Thanks!

Silly,

As to your questions / concerns (in order)

No one said trustee's were reasonable when it comes to debtors discharging thousands of debt. Again, what you may deem as reasonable, fair and just does not constitute the trustee agreeing with you unfortunately.

The 15K: while you may have borrowed the money from her - essentially it is for your son's benefit, therefore your son should work something out with his grandmother to repay the loan. Legitimacy resides in the law, and you did not purchase this car for YOUR benefit or usage like most people who purchase a car prior to filing BK do. From what I understand you are claiming auto expenses for 2 vehicles....assume it doesnt include the new car, however are you certain you get expenses for autos you own? We dont get anything other than operating expenses (ie., gas, maintenance)

Your son doesnt live with you, he has a job, pays his own rent, etc - and while you can contribute some towards assisting him, you are essentially trying to write off an entire payment done for his benefit in order to bring your DMI lower. Or at least..thats how it reads when reviewing your posts.

As to any suggestions - yes, as myself and others have stated you really need to consult with reputable legal counsel before you get into a position that you cannot get out of.

With all that being said, if you actually do plan on hiring an attorney to file then you're doing all of this essentially for nothing because thats what you hire legal representation to do on your behalf. They will tell you what your options are based on what is set forth before them, its their job. It really does sound like you're trying to plan all of this yourself and file pro-se, which in your case would be a huge mistake given everything you've done thus far to this point.

[sillywalks]

Sillywalk,

Your mother had better properly perfect the lein within the time allowed by law or the trustee may well snatch that ride.
The majority of states use the UCC and require a UCC-1 be filed within 20 days of purchase to perfect the lein. Some states have there on procedures so you need to ask a lawyer in your state exactly where you stand on this issue.
I really think a trustee is going to have an issue with you financing a $15K car for your son and then paying $442/month to your mother while you were on the cusp of bk.
Your best bet was to let your mother finance the car in her name and let her grandson use it. Post bk, you could have begun repaying the loan.

Keepmine --

This is what I am saying in my last post (at the end of the thread) -- that basically my mom provided the money for my son to buy a car. The car could be titled in his and her name. He could get his own insurance (hopefully) or be covered under her policy. The 'loan' will be left in limbo until after the bankruptcy is filed, when I can make the monthly payments to her as agreed (but not included in the bankruptcy). As far as the court is concerned, the Subaru would have no bearing on my case -- no payments, no debt taken on by me. After the bankruptcy, I would just make the payments to my mom without the lien and/or complications. That is what you are suggesting in what you posted above, right?

[sillywalks]

keepmine -- I am going to speak with an attorney, but I cannot for the next 2 1/2 weeks, so I'm trying to figure out some game plan (if I can) before then.

I don't see any reason I cannot step out of the car situation. Have my mom and son sign the title as owners. Get my son insurance in his name (I think I have found a less expensive way to do this -- not as low as I pay for his, but not too much more). Then the car is in their names (not mine), he drives and insures the car, and I help to pay the insurance as I do now. At this point, the car is not in anyway mine or in my name. The money did pass through my account, but that is easy to defend because my mom did not have his account number, and I can show it was withdrawn and the bill of sale showing he purchased the car with the money.

I'm just trying to figure out how to clean up the mess without making it a bigger deal (the UCC-1 and such). I don't see how the above scenario can hurt me, but it anyone else does, please let me know. The title needs to be filed within 30 days, and if I cannot get an appointment with an attorney during my spring break, I won't be able to see one until late May.

Plus, I have had the poo scared out of me, and I want to find a solution so I don't feel so unsettled and anxious for the next 2-8 weeks! If I at least have what seems to be a workable plan to go to the lawyer with, I will feel better. This stuff is scary, and I truly did not believe that having my mom loan me the money was going to be a huge problem. I was kind of blindsided by it, I guess. So, I'm a little freaked out and looking for some type of solid ground.

[keepmine]

Keepmine --

Doesn't a UCC-1 only apply when a debtor is delinquent with regard to the creditor's specific debt and agreement with the debtor? In other words, it is not something my mom would file unless I was not paying her as agreed? Or would she file it when I file for bankruptcy?

Since at this point the title has not been registered -- am I better off letting her register the car and loan it to my son to drive?

I just don't understand why this is so hard.
You have no idea what you're doing. You are just floundering around with no clue as to how this process works.
With all the variables you've posted, you don't have a routine run of the mill bk. You had better get yourself an attorney before you make any other move that'll come back to haunt you.