How worried should I be?

[unkelaaron]

So case was dismissed by UST last week. Do I have to wait 6 months from when I first filed, or 6 months from the dismissal date to file again? what a mess.
thanks

[debee]

It appears that your wife’s income and expenses are a wash because we can only claim the expenses if she has the income, then only to the amount of income, which is why I did not recommend waiting to file. Since you are likely to lose the debt service of the homestead and rental property in the next round, a surefire fix would be a charitable contribution of about $3,500/m for the six full months prior to filing, since there is not limit in chapter 7. Compared to $66,000 over 5 years, it would be a considerable savings, and you would be someone’s hero.

Honestly, I think there is something wrong here. Inexperience, incompetence. I don't know. Something. His reasons for not postponing are wrong and his plan for your future filing will fail.

Aside from daycare (if she's not working) you can include your wife's separate expenses as household expenses. In fact, I've read about using non-filing spouse's debt as a deliberate qualification strategy.

Also, starting up some crazy charity scheme in between a dismissed case and a new case & trying to claim it as an expense will land you in a pot of boiling trouble.

Seriously, I'm worried about this guy's clients. If you keep him and have him file for you, you're going to need to be your own advocate. Do a lot of reading, post your expenses here on the forum and get some feedback, etc. You're going to need to do some serious work to protect your own interests. Or, hire another lawyer and start over.

It really stinks that people like this guy are out there taking money and scuppering cases. Luckily, you will have another shot at it. Gotta get your ducks in a row.

[IamOld]

Holy crap unclearon - it also seems like the atty is covering his rear end by offering another ch 7 and "no cost." Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable...but I wonder if refiling w/out wife's income etc may not be the one thing...

[unkelaaron]

Update-Got this email from my attorney last week. As some of you know, the UST basically shot down my "slamdunk chapter 7" (actually said by my attorney).
I've pasted his email below. I'm just so past the point of confusion now. The biggest thing is what he says about my wife's expenses not counting if i refile down the line because she is no longer employed. If I am the sole breadwinner in the family, how are her living expenses and bills not included in any calculation?? Just doesn't make sense to me. I wish I had never filed to begin with because obviously this was not a slam dunk, and now I'm stuck with a chapter 7 on my credit report, 2 homes about to enter the foreclosure process, and nothing positive out of the whole situation but constant disapointment from my attorney.

I love his comment about a surefire fix of charitable contributions of $3,500 per month for the next 6 months before filing again to help with the means test.
Really? My wife and I both thought someone slipped us a mickey or something reading that. Because we've been using our extra $3,500/month to feed our unicorn which pisses gold medalions. WE FILED FOR BANKRUPTCY AND ARE SURRENDERING 2 HOMES BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE AN EXTRA $3,500/MONTH TO GIVE TO CHARITY!!!!
In a nutshell, what do we do? Obviously we are going to let this dismiss. But moving forward, a lot of you had recommended re-filing in 6 months when my wife's income is no longer a factor since she is a stay at home mom now.
Also, my wife has a 2 door 2003 Explorer and with our youngest being the fattest 6 month old ever, a 2 door vehicle is no longer practicle if I value my life. She needs a new to us vehicle so we have to figure that out as well.
After this, we are going to cure cancer and solve that whole Middle East thing once and for all!!!! Thanks in advance for your help. Attorneys last email below.


UST has accepted all of my expense numbers except child care, which leaves us about $1,000 short of beating the presumption. Options are to allow dismissal or convert to chapter 13.The UST has determined that in this Region, bonuses are full included without reduction if they fall within in the full six month period prior to filing. When it is added back in, your average income for the full six months prior to filing is $12,041.22. I excluded it initially to get the amount of $11,050/m. Increasing the arrearages due on the former homestead & rental property maximized the ‘payments on secured debts’. Since the car loan is included in debt service, only the difference between the IRS standard and loan payment is allowable as transportation expenses; an unjust result, but UST is not going to allow the rest of it. The wife’s separate expenses were all allowed as deductions. The charitable deduction was also allowed.

The UST will file a motion to dismiss based on finding of abuse. We can agree to that and let it be dismissed. Or, we can convert to chapter 13, which at the moment would result in a monthly payment of $1,085/ month for 60 months, which would result in a nearly 50% dividend to unsecured creditors (as listed on Schedule F presently). If you allow the ch7 case to dismiss and wish to refile, I will handle your case for no additional fee or costs. There are a number of steps to take prior to doing so. We can review them if you are interested. It appears that your wife’s income and expenses are a wash because we can only claim the expenses if she has the income, then only to the amount of income, which is why I did not recommend waiting to file. Since you are likely to lose the debt service of the homestead and rental property in the next round, a surefire fix would be a charitable contribution of about $3,500/m for the six full months prior to filing, since there is not limit in chapter 7. Compared to $66,000 over 5 years, it would be a considerable savings, and you would be someone’s hero.

[unkelaaron]

thanks guys, you help more than you know.

[debee]

I think the OP stated that the wife's income of $2600 is included in the means test, but she is no longer working. So if they don't allow the childcare expenses, they should also be removing the $2600 monthly income that was included on the means test.

Good point, free.

[free2breathe]

I think the OP stated that the wife's income of $2600 is included in the means test, but she is no longer working. So if they don't allow the childcare expenses, they should also be removing the $2600 monthly income that was included on the means test. It seems to me that the attorney needs to do some quick refiguring of ALL the numbers and appeal to the UST with the corrections. Nothing like a total convoluted mess.

Hope things start looking up soon, Aaron.

[Lalalink]

LALA Link and newbie2, under marital adjustments, it has her credit cards which I am not a cosigner or responsible for, so I still dont know why he wouldn't be able to put the student loan on there as well.

I would ask your attorney why he didn't put her loans there; I would think he would also have listed her credit cards and student loans on the Schedule J (itemized under "Other Expenses").

[momofthree]

Bear in mind that if you wife gets a job, the daycare expenses will be allowable, BUT her income will have to be counted and you may very well end up in a ch.13. She would therefore be working to pay for daycare and a bankruptcy payment. Maybe she loves working so she wouldn't care, but I know that if *I* had the option to either stay home with my kids or work for essentially zero pay, I'd stay home with my kids in a heartbeat.

If you allow this bk to be dismissed, wait until her income falls off of the lookback, then you can file bk 7 without issue, and she can get a job after discharge if need be. Also, if she isn't working, then you can count her student loan payments as an expense. If she is working, then those debts will have to come out of her income and can't be listed as one of your expenses.

[unkelaaron]

LALA Link and newbie2, under marital adjustments, it has her credit cards which I am not a cosigner or responsible for, so I still dont know why he wouldn't be able to put the student loan on there as well.

Are you guys saying there is a difference between dismissing it voluntarily and the UST dismissing it? Would it be 6 months til I could file either way? sorry for all the questions.

[frogger]

If you get the trustee to dismiss this chapter 7, he will most likely do it with prejudice, thus barring you from filing for at least another 6 months. That's bad, however it does give you time to get your house back in order.

Once dismissed, you have no protection from creditors. Good luck.

[Lalalink]

but we have to pay her expenses out of my pay since shes not working. they take her credit card bills into account as expenses, why not her student loan. its something we have to pay

Look into "marital adjustments"... Didn't your attorney list her student loans in the Marital Adjustment area of the forms... see what your lawyer listed for "Marital Adjustments" on 22A...

[Lalalink]

Moving forward, is there a difference if the UST dismisses the case or its voluntary?
So, 180 days from the dismisal, I can start all over again filing a chapter 7? Using income from those 6 months?

If you are going to wait to file Ch. 7, you'll want your lawyer to file a motion to voluntarily dismiss your chapter 7. You'll also need to look into the ramifications of withdrawing from the Chapter 7. Such as: I think you lose some protections from creditors (such as the automatic stay).... and the automatic stay may be limited to (30 days?) once you refile the Chapter 7 (unless you can prove you filed in good faith).... talk to a lawyer to get the specifics that would apply to your case.

[newbie2]

but we have to pay her expenses out of my pay since shes not working. they take her credit card bills into account as expenses, why not her student loan. its something we have to pay

Unless you are a co-signer or otherwise responsible for her student loans, then I think you would have a difficult time getting this across as your expense.

[unkelaaron]

but we have to pay her expenses out of my pay since shes not working. they take her credit card bills into account as expenses, why not her student loan. its something we have to pay