Opinions Please

[epiphany]

I may be forced to go the Legal Helpers Route. I know some people here had good experiences with them and some had bad.

I have consulted with three lawyers in my area (was very much wanting to hire an ex bankruptcy judge that practices BK law here) but I can't afford any of them. I would love to go pro se but am terrified that I will miss something important. I am equally terrifed that Legal Helpers will miss something important.

I have an appointment with them (already had a phone consult) on the 23rd. Was thinking maybe I will fill out all the BK forms and take them with me so all we have to do is discuss and maybe correct them. I figure the more work I do for them, the less they can screw up. Of course, I would not just hand them to them and say "this is correct". But at least I would know that all my creditors were included and that other information would not be missed.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
EP

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Epiphany (love your name, btw ) the very first thing you should do is get the Nolo Press book and read it. Don't worry about the forms for right now; trying to do those first won't help you. Get the book and study it. Even if you get a "legal helper" (by which I assume you mean an attorney who is willing to assist you without representing you) you are still in essence pro se, so approach it as though you are! Prepare for pro se even if you can get help. Depending on your circumstances and assuming they are not complicated by business expenses, insider payments, recent or excessive CC charges, tax issues or the like, you may find pro se to be very straightforward and very rewarding.

It's scary, but it can be done, and many here have done it successfully. I didn't know the difference between a Chapter 13 and a Chapter 11 at the beginning of November, but by the first week of December I had filed everything... and perfectly, from what I am seeing. I just took a great deal of care to educate myself about everything bk, paying special attention to common mistakes I'd rather not repeat, and so far, so good. I have a 341 in January and God willing, discharge in Mid-March.

First, get the book. Read it through. It's the best $$$ you can spend. See if you come across anything in your situation that really should be handled by an attorney. Get acquainted with bankruptcy procedure; visit your court's website. When you feel ready, download the forms and print at least two copies. Go over them in pencil, highlight stuff you know you can't answer or don't understand, pencil in the stuff you can. Go back and look through your resources to fill in the gaps in your knowledge, and hit it again. When you think you have it right, pencil in your "correct" answers on the second set of forms and take that set to the legal helpers on the 23rd. And then, if they say everything's good, call the ex-bk judge and see if he will give you an hour at a flat fee, and run them by him along with any questions. I think you'll be fine.

Plus, once you get your papers filed and you know they're filed right, it gets much easier from that point forward. But until then: study, study, learn, learn. Good luck!!!

[epiphany]

Hi. Wow, thanks for taking the time.

By Legal Helpers, I mean the BK franchise, so there would be an attorney, but I am skeptical about how much attention he or she would or could actually give to my case.

I am an easy 7 but do have a full time job and a small business on ebay which only pulls in 4-6K per year. Still puts me way under the median. I am wondering if this small business may require special attention since I do claim it on my taxes but there are no outstanding expenses in the business' name that I would have to claim on BK. I have, however, used credit cards in the past to pay for postage and such. I am a sole proprietor.

I also have no insider payments. Last charge on credit card was about 3 months ago for piddly amount. No tax issues. No PayDay loans. No recent cash advances. Think I am okay to file.

The only asset I have is my paid off car, which is worth 3-5K depending on where you look and I cannot afford to lose it. I can't go to work if I don't have it. This is another major concern of mine.

Where did you buy your NOLO book? I did a quick search earlier tonight and saw them for sale (ebay, amazon) but it was not clear if they were current or not.

I really LOVE your idea about getting an hour of the ex bk judge's time to look at my forms. I hadn't thought of that.

Gosh, now that I am typing away I realize I have so many other questions about filing pro se. For example, did you send the notices to the creditors yourself or does the court do that?

I am also apprehensive about attending the 341 by myself. Scary. Is there anything a lawyer does there or is having a lawyer attend really just for comfort?

Thank you so much.

EP

Epiphany (love your name, btw ) the very first thing you should do is get the Nolo Press book and read it. Don't worry about the forms for right now; trying to do those first won't help you. Get the book and study it. Even if you get a "legal helper" (by which I assume you mean an attorney who is willing to assist you without representing you) you are still in essence pro se, so approach it as though you are! Prepare for pro se even if you can get help. Depending on your circumstances and assuming they are not complicated by business expenses, insider payments, recent or excessive CC charges, tax issues or the like, you may find pro se to be very straightforward and very rewarding.

It's scary, but it can be done, and many here have done it successfully. I didn't know the difference between a Chapter 13 and a Chapter 11 at the beginning of November, but by the first week of December I had filed everything... and perfectly, from what I am seeing. I just took a great deal of care to educate myself about everything bk, paying special attention to common mistakes I'd rather not repeat, and so far, so good. I have a 341 in January and God willing, discharge in Mid-March.

First, get the book. Read it through. It's the best $$$ you can spend. See if you come across anything in your situation that really should be handled by an attorney. Get acquainted with bankruptcy procedure; visit your court's website. When you feel ready, download the forms and print at least two copies. Go over them in pencil, highlight stuff you know you can't answer or don't understand, pencil in the stuff you can. Go back and look through your resources to fill in the gaps in your knowledge, and hit it again. When you think you have it right, pencil in your "correct" answers on the second set of forms and take that set to the legal helpers on the 23rd. And then, if they say everything's good, call the ex-bk judge and see if he will give you an hour at a flat fee, and run them by him along with any questions. I think you'll be fine.

Plus, once you get your papers filed and you know they're filed right, it gets much easier from that point forward. But until then: study, study, learn, learn. Good luck!!!

[Minnymouth]

Filing pro se can be very dangerous if your have assets (such as home, auto, etc) that you want to keep.

Also your case is determined by whether you have disposable assets or not for the Trustee to sell.

You do not decide which Chapter you will file. The Court does. You can file for a Chapter 7, BUT if a trustee determines you have enough disposable income for a Chapter 13 you will be forced into a Chapter 13.

The fact that you have a parttime business can cause problems also......

Do your paperwork, run it by Legal Aid or a paralegal, or even a BK attorney (by the hour) and see where you stand.

Consultations are free usually, and you can learn a lot about your case this way.....

Yes, Nolo Books are great information for you to use.....

Keep us posted......

[FreshLikeADaisy]

By Legal Helpers, I mean the BK franchise, so there would be an attorney, but I am skeptical about how much attention he or she would or could actually give to my case.

Ew, yeah, I see your point. Would you like fries with that?

I am an easy 7 but do have a full time job and a small business on ebay which only pulls in 4-6K per year. Still puts me way under the median. I am wondering if this small business may require special attention since I do claim it on my taxes but there are no outstanding expenses in the business' name that I would have to claim on BK. I have, however, used credit cards in the past to pay for postage and such. I am a sole proprietor.

I also have no insider payments. Last charge on credit card was about 3 months ago for piddly amount. No tax issues. No PayDay loans. No recent cash advances. Think I am okay to file.

The only asset I have is my paid off car, which is worth 3-5K depending on where you look and I cannot afford to lose it. I can't go to work if I don't have it. This is another major concern of mine.

You have to read up and make up your own mind, but actually that sounds very straightforward, esp since there are no business expenses and it's pretty much all consumer debt.

Whether you get to keep the car in a Ch7 depends entirely on your state's exemptions (again, you can read all about it in the Nolo book). If it turns out that you would lose the car, that's when you might consider a 13. You WILL need an attorney for a 13, though.

Where did you buy your NOLO book? I did a quick search earlier tonight and saw them for sale (ebay, amazon) but it was not clear if they were current or not.

You can get it from nolo.com in either PDF or paperback (PDF is cheaper, but having the paper to flip through was very good for me personally) or you can get it at any major bookstore. I got mine at Barnes & Noble for just under $30. There's a sticky on this forum that gives you all the details you will need. I don't know that I would buy a used one unless I knew for a fact it was current, as you say, and the latest version only came out a couple of months ago.

Gosh, now that I am typing away I realize I have so many other questions about filing pro se. For example, did you send the notices to the creditors yourself or does the court do that?

You do what's called a matrix, which is a very specific list of all your creditors and their addresses, that you file with your bankruptcy. The court then sends out Form 9 to every creditor on this list. Many creditors are also signed up with the U.S. bankruptcy courts to receive electronic notices. So the answer is no, the courts do that.

I am also apprehensive about attending the 341 by myself. Scary. Is there anything a lawyer does there or is having a lawyer attend really just for comfort?

Yeah, I'm pretty scared about going to my 341 without an attorney, but you know what? I am going to gird up my loins and do it scared!

Of everything I have heard, actually having your lawyer act for you in any meaningful way at your 341 is fairly rare. Usually it's a very straightforward set of questions, thanks, next? It tends to be a cattle call, with many people scheduled the same day as you, so they are not going to spend a great deal of time with you if they can help it. But if you prepare well, you'll already know all the pitfalls anyway, and where your weaknesses lie. Minny is very right in what she says as well; going around and getting a bunch of free consults is a great help. They don't need to know you might not hire them, and you can spend the half hour peppering them with questions.

Many people here have done pro se. If you don't have any complexities in your financial life that would make pro se unwise for you, then there's no reason to think you can't do it either. If you are detailed, honest, self-motivated, patient, and can study unfamiliar subjects on your own, you're golden. That, and you can't get nellie at the sight of an official form.

(wink to chpxiii)

Good luck to you!!!