where to find samples of chap 13

[tigergem]

I filed mine pro se as well, and have been in plan for 17 months and confirmed for over a year! Filing a Chapter 13 can be difficult in most Districts. The deck is already stacked against Chapter 13 debtors, as far as completion rates, but the real hurdle is getting a confirmed plan that will work for you. Unless you are meticulous and know how to follow the Rules (FRBP), Local Rules, and formats for Papers... you can find resistance starting right at the Clerk's office and ending with the Trustee himself!

In Districts where there is a model plan, it's easy to get confirmed. However, is your plan working you or are you working the plan?

lol and you are my [heart] justbroke! You give me hope, and I thank you for that. My Clerk's office has been super nice and uber helpful. I fully expect my trustee to be a bear. He might surprise me pleasantly. But his assistant is a bear. lol. My Plan is definitely going to work for me -- so long as I can sell it to the trustee, I guess. This is actually one of the BEST things that has happened to my budget and spending in years. My only regret is not doing it 3 or 4 years ago when the trouble started, right after my divorce. Then I might be about done with it.

[HHM]

Look at it this way. A difference of $100 in your chapter 13 is $6,000 over the life of your plan; I think most people can/should invest in the $2,000-$3,000 to hire an attorney to get the best possible chapter 13 plan. Most chapter 13 trustees can get an extra $100 to $200 per month out of a proposed chapter 13 plan by checking a few boxes on a standard form objection.

You are NOT saving any money in the long run by not hiring an attorney.

[tigergem]

Well. I worked my budget very carefully. And my plan payment is within (under) $2.00 of income I don't have allotted for my regular necessities. Rent, insurance, phone, groceries, laundry, etc...

Seriously, I am almost to the penny. The plan and schedules weren't the parts I struggled with. In fact it felt like I had divine intervention, the way it fit so neatly together! It's definitely procedures that I have to pay special mind to, so they don't trip me up.

I'm not trying to be stubborn OR stupid... really... it seemed like the only way to get this done at the time I was doing it was to do it myself. I guess....MAYBE... if I hadn't had to put a transmission in my vehicle right at that time, I might have been able to afford to retain an attorney to do it, but only if I could find one first. There aren't any BK attorneys in my town at all.

[HHM]

HHM you are scaring me! Big time! I did file my Chapter 13 pro se.

It is not impossible, but most chapter 13 trustees "hate" pro se filers; and there really are too many pitfalls. Heck, many BK attorneys won't do chapter 13's (but that is more due to 13's being a time suck). Unless you are really committed to doing your homework on chapter 13's, it really is better and more cost effective to hire an attorney. Also, strictly speaking, if you can file a confirmable chapter 13, then you DO have the money to pay for lawyer; most chapter 13 pro se filers tend to be too stubborn or too stupid to know when they are in over their head.

[justbroke]

HHM you are scaring me! Big time! I did file my Chapter 13 pro se.

I filed mine pro se as well, and have been in plan for 17 months and confirmed for over a year! Filing a Chapter 13 can be difficult in most Districts. The deck is already stacked against Chapter 13 debtors, as far as completion rates, but the real hurdle is getting a confirmed plan that will work for you. Unless you are meticulous and know how to follow the Rules (FRBP), Local Rules, and formats for Papers... you can find resistance starting right at the Clerk's office and ending with the Trustee himself!

In Districts where there is a model plan, it's easy to get confirmed. However, is your plan working you or are you working the plan?

[tigergem]

HHM you are scaring me! Big time! I did file my Chapter 13 pro se.

[HHM]

Sorry if I made you feel out there, but it sounds like there is a more fundamental confusion going on so I tried to make it as simple as possible. If you are trying to do the forms yourself, don't. Go get an attorney, no one should do a chapter 13 pro se (that is, without an attorney). My guess is, you are getting stalled on form B-22 because that is where exempt vs non-exempt income can come into play, but really, form B-22 has almost nothing to do with determining your chapter 13 payment. Generally, your chapter 13 payment will be based off of schedules I and J, which simply add up all income, from all sources, deduct out expenses, and what ever is left over, is your chapter 13 payment (again, devil in the details, but fundamentally, that is how you do it).

Incidentally, if you really are negative on B-22, why do you want to file chapter 13, are you trying to save your house or something?

[maxwell18]

ok

[HHM]

You are WAY over thinking this.

Just add up ALL INCOME, regardless of source, subtract ALL your expenses, that is your payment.

If you are still confused after that explanation, I can't help you

[maxwell18]

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Thanks for your reply. I explained I am negative without the SS which is not used with the income until you add it back for income then my numbers back to positive. I was asking about the negative number being deducted from the overall income after the SS is added.

[HHM]

There really is no mystery here in figuring out your payment. Gross income - deductions - living expenses. That's it. Just start with what you actually spend. Also, you look at it from a "monthly" perspective, don't worry about multiplying by 60.
If you have $5,000 a month coming in, and after deductions and living expenses, you only have $450 per month, that is presumptively your chapter 13 payment. Of course, the devil is in the details, but if all your looking for is a starting point, that is all you need to do. Also, for bankruptcy, ALL sources of income count, regardless of exempt status. We can certainly help you with questions about specific expenses (i.e. RV payment, not allowed; 401K loan repayment, allowed...etc).

Realize, to do chapter 13, you have to show some positive number. If you are actually negative each month, your chapter 13 will be objected too and dismissed.

[maxwell18]

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The only thing I am trying to do is figure the payment and see if we can make it for five years. I know what some people say they (government has it figured out so you can live on it) I don't belive that. That's what wrong with all the crazy stuff going on now. I ask questions on this site for help.

[tigergem]

I thought about and then opted not to look at examples of other cases on Pacer. Every situation is unique. You don't necessarily know, unless it was discharged, whether a particular current filing is a favorable example or not.... Why rely on what might be somebody else's mistakes? Really, if you don't over think it, this process is not that difficult. The Plan itself is a bit complicated and you have to remember to include your trustee's percentage fee in the repayment plan. Which might mean making a phone call to find out what that percentage should be.

[justbroke]

Thanks, I have read NOLO back and forth I have BK for dummies and have asked questions on this site and have attained a atty and got a draft of the means test (not finished) by the atty. I guess it looks like I am pretty dumb and I am on this subject, but am seeking help on specific issues and cannot find the answers.

I'm sorry that you're having troubles.

You bring up the mortage subject can or do you list the diff in what they allow in line 21?

I hope you're talking about Form B22A. No, you don't put anything on line 21. You skip that line like the plague as anything put on that line will be questioned. You get your entire mortgage amount on Line B42!

What after figuring your means test and not figuring SS you come up with a negative figure is that deducted in the over figure after figuring back in on payments.

You want your disposable monthly income to be as close to $0.00/month or below. So negative is good!

I am $612.00 negative,times 60 =36,720.00 vs SS added $3246.00 times 60=$190,760.00. Now do you deduct 36,730.00 from 190.760.00?

I don't understand what you're trying to do.

Reference to the type of questions I have asked about, I have looked on this site and any others I did not find the answers I felt answered my questions. I have asked about Pacer I signed up and got my ID and password but cannot figure how to just look at any docket cases (not mine) as I have not file yet just want to see actual cases.

Be very careful with running PACER queries. It can cost you a lot of money.

And one more last thing (for now) I am drawing mil retirement, VA disability 100% and SS and my wife is drawing SS and a annunity. We read and was told all this is protected from any suits or garnishments. Any ideas on that. Thanks very much.

They are protected but it is income. However, Social Security is not counted in what they call the "current monthly income" calculation. I'm guessing that you'll probably be under the means anyhow.

Since you have special categories of income, I would probably seek an attorney to file, in your case. Some Districts treat SS and Disability strangely.

[maxwell18]

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Thank you very much for the pacer help....