BK Mills vs BK Offices

[ForumReader]

I have been reading a number of posts about BK mills and BK offices and thought to start a thread on this topic. Please share any knowledge of information/insight/differences between BK Mills and BK offices and their pros/cons. Hopefully new members can have a good idea of these two type of BK offices when deciding on a lawyer they want to retain. Thanks!

[Dst1]

I am not a lawyer but I object to those terms. A "BK mill" has a negative connotation associated with that term that I think is just not fair. There's a lawyer for every client.

I do think there can be a problem when a lawyer knows that a client is not a good fit for his or her firm but accepts the case anyway for the money...why let them go to the competition. But that's not a problem unique to "BK Mills". Doctors sometimes do the same thing.

If you want to have a discussion about the different types of law firms out there that do BK; that a fair topic. But I don't think you advance that discussion by labeling some as "mills" right from the start.

[HHM]

BK attorneys can be categorized in 3 ways (generally)
1. Specialists
2. Mills
3. Dabblers

Dabblers are those attornesy that practice BK, but also have a substantial % of their practice in other, unrelated, areas of law, (like family law, criminal law etc). Thus, they "dabble" in BK. They may be fine attorneys in a general sense, but BK is actually a very specialized area of law. Unfortunately, many dabblers view BK as simply filing out paperwork.

Mills: These are firm looking to churn a high volume of cases. There is nothing wrong, per se, with mills so long as the consumer realizes what they are paying for, which sadly, is not much. Most mills are nothing more than glorified doc prep services except that an attorney signs your petition. Mills tend to nickel and dime for every little thing and you usually only see the attorney twice (initial consult, and the 341 meeting). Many people get lulled into the false assumption that mill attorneys are very experienced, not true because all they do is file hundreds of "simple" cases. A 20 year carpenter is not a qualified plumber.

Specialists: These are the attorneys that handle all ranges of BK from the simple to the complex. These are the attorneys that have devoted themselves to BK law (or at least to debt resolution).

But as was pointed out, there are attorneys for every market segment. BK is an industry like any other. When you go to Wal-Mart, you're going for cheap and crappy service (i.e. the BK Mills), when you want good quality and great service you go the Nordstrom's (BK specialist). The problem with BK is that since people don't file BK routinely, they tend not to understand the differences between attorneys and end up getting an attorney not right for their case and regretting it later.

[MSbklawyer]

You might be a bankruptcy mill if . . .

If you have a commercial on TV that runs after midnight where you advertise your bankruptcy services for "the low, low price of only $299" . . . You might be a bankruptcy mill.

If you have a billboard out on the interstate featuring a picture of you in your cowboy hat and your best Clint Eastwood pose advising creditors to "make my day" . . . You might be a bankruptcy mill.

If the first time you ever lay eyes on your client is at the 341 meeting . . . You might be a bankruptcy mill.

Others . . . anyone?

[MSbklawyer]

BK attorneys can be categorized in 3 ways (generally)
1. Specialists
2. Mills
3. Dabblers

Dabblers are those attornesy that practice BK, but also have a substantial % of their practice in other areas of law, (like family law, criminal law etc). Thus, they "dabble" in BK. They may be fine attorneys in a general sense, but BK is actually a very specialized area of law. Unfortunately, many dabblers view BK as simply filing out paperwork.

Mills: These are firm looking to churn a high volume of cases. There is nothing wrong, per se, with mills so long as the consumer realizes what they are paying for, which sadly, they don't get a lot. Most mills are nothing more than glorified doc prep services except that an attorney signs your petition. Mills tend to nickel and dime for every little thing and you usually only see the attorney twice (initial consult, and the 341 meeting). Many people get lulled into the false assumption that mill attorneys are very experienced, not true because all they do is file hundreds of "simple" cases. A 20 year carpenter is not a qualified plumber.

Specialists: These are the attorneys that handle all ranges of BK from the simple to the complex. These are the attorneys that have devoted themselves to BK law (or at least to debt resolution).

But as was pointed out, there are attorneys for every market segment. BK is an industry like any other. When you go to Wal-Mart, you going for cheap and crappy service (i.e. the BK Mills), when you want good quality and great service you go the Nordstrom's (BK specialist). The problem with BK is that since people don't file BK routinely, they tend not to understand the differences between attorneys and end up getting an attorney not right for their case and regretting later.

Very well put, HHM. I would add that there are very few dabblers anymore. The software that is required, the CLE seminars to keep abreast of all the new BAPCPA decisions, the books &c. make it impractical for anyone to cost effectively do this stuff without a bit of volume.

[optimistic1]

I have come across plenty of dabblers that despite all these seminars you suggested. To me these lawyers had it all wrong from what I read out of the NOLO book. What they really relied on, was their legal assistant and Best Case. Some would tell me I couldnt file a 13 yet because of the 8 year rule, which doesnt apply, and others would give me printouts of the median income and they were all outdated, by years. Of the 10 or so attorneys I interviewed, only about 3 of them really seemed to know their stuff.

[ForumReader]

I am not a lawyer but I object to those terms. A "BK mill" has a negative connotation associated with that term that I think is just not fair. There's a lawyer for every client.

I do think there can be a problem when a lawyer knows that a client is not a good fit for his or her firm but accepts the case anyway for the money...why let them go to the competition. But that's not a problem unique to "BK Mills". Doctors sometimes do the same thing.

If you want to have a discussion about the different types of law firms out there that do BK; that a fair topic. But I don't think you advance that discussion by labeling some as "mills" right from the start.

Which is exactly why I started this thread because there has been a number of posts members have mentioned "bk mills". I did not mean it this way, but it got me curious and I wanted to see if other members can share their knowledge of the differences between bk mills, offices, etc. That was all. Thanks.

[SleeplessMI]

Plenty of mills in my town. Everybody knows who they are, and they just keep getting busier. They're a lot cheaper than my lawyer, but I wouldn't trust them to handle my case because it's complex. However, they would seem to be a good choice for the filer with a very basic no-asset Chapter 7 who can't file pro se. Many good reasons for that--lack of education, fear, or just doesn't want to. If someone's case is very basic and they're up to the job of wading through the Nolo book, it might be better to bypass the mill and DIY.

[catleg]

You might be a bankruptcy mill, if ...

... you send mass mailings out to civil court defendants who lose judgments to creditors, telling them about their rights.

[calgirl67]

BK Mills are great if you are under median, have no toys or investments, or anything else that could screw up your petition. In my case, I am $40k over median and my attorney costs a bunch more than a Mill but he got us in for a 7 - all allowable expenses by the way.. If your case is complex or you are over median you are best to consult a specialist.

[andy158]

I think ours may be a little of both. The lawyer is strictly bk, but he has three paralegals working for him and if you call his office the questions are directed to his "staff". He is never in the offfce. If it is something they can not answer at the time, they get back to you with an answer from the lawyer. I have only spoke to my lawyer 3x and actually saw him in person 2x. Once at filing, once at the 341 and once over the phone for my confirmation. I am not complaining nor have had any problems. The security of having legal counsel at your finger tips is worth the $3k it cost us to file.

The first lawyer we went to learned things from us and we did most of the leg work trying to do a 7 bk. After two months of spinning our wheels I found another.

[Bluefish]

I'm not sure what kind mine is! Seems to specialize in BK, but funny last week my husband commented he felt like we are being run through a mill (and that's before I even heard the term for the first time, reading this thread today)

I do know I am frustrated. We had our meeting w/attorney and were given a 3 page list of documents and explanations we need to get together. We were given 1 month, but told in no uncertain terms that if ANYTHING was missing from the list our appointment to go over the list would be stopped immediately and an additional fee would be charged to reschedule. I had it complete in 2 weeks, except I was missing a few documents (stuff from 20 yrs ago!) and also had a few questions. It took a week for the office to call me back and then to schedule a phone conference to answer my questions...another week later. This was then rescheduled and the 2nd appt. time for the phone conf. we weren't even called. Finally, almost 4 weeks after my initial contact to find out what I do about my missing documents and my other questions I got attorney to call me. And then attorney had the nerve to tell me I was late with my paperwork!

I've also read several comments on this board that once you hire an attorney the debt collection calls stop or they can be referred to your attorney. Is this everyone's experience? We thought this too, but when we asked our attorney what to do about all the calls she said to just keep holding them off, and we said "oh, they don't contact you now?" and she said no.

[HHM]

Some firms will allow you to refer creditors, some won't. A sign of a BK Mill is that they won't allow you to refer creditors.

As for "homework", realize, the attorney has to get information from you somehow; an attorney cannot "divine" your financial circumstances. This is usually accomplished with a questionnaire and check list of documents.

As I said, there is nothing particularly wrong with BK mills, but you just need to realize what you are getting.

As you can see from this thread, many attorneys use the tired old model of nickel and dimeing their clients. The best firms charge a flat rate and cover everything, but those firms are on the higher side.

[Bluefish]

[QUOTE=HHM;375593]
As for "homework", realize, the attorney has to get information from you somehow; an attorney cannot "divine" your financial circumstances. This is usually accomplished with a questionnaire and check list of documents.

Oh, I realize they need all the info - but what was so frustrating was that it took nearly 4 weeks to get the attorney to answer the few questions I had regarding the homework and then tried to tell me I was the one who was late with it

[LookingAhead]

I've also read several comments on this board that once you hire an attorney the debt collection calls stop or they can be referred to your attorney. Is this everyone's experience? We thought this too, but when we asked our attorney what to do about all the calls she said to just keep holding them off, and we said "oh, they don't contact you now?" and she said no

.

I have contacted 5 lawyers so far. The first does not have a fee to retain him or do payment plans. I hve the paperwork to fill out on my own, but I do nothing else with him (include refer creditors to him) until the full fee is paid and the paperwork is completed along with having all documents needed.

Another one is the trustee for my county, so I cannot use him.

2 of the others I can retain for $100 and as soon as I do I tell the creditors that I am filing for bk and have retained my lawyer. His name is so and so and you can contact him at xxx-xxx-xxxx thank you *click*. One of them told me this should hold 95% of them off while I get my money and paperwork together and the other 5% are just stupid and will waste their time calling you anyway. One of those with the $100 I meet with him 3 other times and each time we work on the paperwork together so that by the time I bring in my final payment and have him paid off, we are signing the final papers and are officially filed and go from there.

The 4th once I pay the $250 retaining fee I can tell creditors the above info. I can't remember about the payments for him if he takes them or not, I need to look over my info again...

So much info crammed in my head right now. They are all different though! I am so confused about who to hire (with the exception of the 1st guy - he's out!) that I think I might call some more on Monday and maybe set up some more free consultations (after asking this exact question on the phone first).