Tithe Not Allowed In Chapter 13

[anonymuse]

Thursday, September 07, 2006

Tithe Not Allowed In Chapter 13http://www.nacba.org) is the only national organization dedicated to serving the needs of consumer bankruptcy attorneys and protecting the rights of consumer debtors in bankruptcy. Formed in 1992, NACBA now has more than 3300 members located in all 50 states and Puerto Rico.

http://www.bpaperfree.com/index.php

[Minnymouth]

If we're not carefull in our Society, we will be "allowing contributions" to TERROIST!!!!.............. NEXT..................

[anonymuse]

Interesting how you can tithe for a 7, but not for a 13. That alone should cause a ruckus.

[InLimbo]

You are kidding right!! We tithe over 300.00 monthy (still isn't 10% of our income) and our attorney added our tithes to our expenses. He told us we needed proof and so I went and got the proof from our chuch last month. So, basically us getting to file for a chapter 7 is pretty much wiped out by adding this expense back in and forcing us into a chapter 13 and if we are stuck in a 13 this means we can no longer give back to the Lord what is rightfully his! THIS IS SO WRONG!!

[jane taylor]

I hate to admit this, but we have never tithed! We are now giving a very small amount to our Church and on a more regular basis. I did not grow up learning to tithe as my folks always resented ministers for wearing nice clothes, etc. Poor stewardship manifests itself in many ways.

Forgive me if I am going off on a tangent, but while I do believe in tithing and look forward to realistically being able to do that, I do not believe that God will automatically take away all of my financial problems, etc. if we just tithes. Maybe I just don't have enough faith.

[JeepMom]

Mormons will be denied heaven! In order for mormons to get into heaven they must do temple work. In order to do temple work you must be temple worthy and that includes paying your tithes.

Good thing I'm a heathen and don't belive in God.

[InLimbo]

I hate to admit this, but we have never tithed! We are now giving a very small amount to our Church and on a more regular basis. I did not grow up learning to tithe as my folks always resented ministers for wearing nice clothes, etc. Poor stewardship manifests itself in many ways.

Forgive me if I am going off on a tangent, but while I do believe in tithing and look forward to realistically being able to do that, I do not believe that God will automatically take away all of my financial problems, etc. if we just tithes. Maybe I just don't have enough faith.

Jane, I have tithed some part of my income all of my life. I was brought up to do so (like my parents did) and didn't truely understand why. other than helping the church out, until I got much older. Besides contributing to our church to help pay the church bills and help the families that are in need (including ourselves 2 years ago, we were flooded and lost our heat and A/C and our church replaced our entire system with a new one for the sum of nothing) I don't even tithe because of those reasons anymore, I NOW tithe first off to show the Lord my faith in him. If you think about it, the Lord doesn't need our money, he just wants us to trust him and have faith and tithing is part of that trust. We are still not tithing at 10% because of our bills, so I have some ways to go with my faith also. I know this is turning religious and Im sorry, I just wanted to stress that this new law is taking away part of my religious belief and something I have worked so hard on the last couple of years to do. My finances may not go away if I tithe, but I have faith that he will continue to provide for me and my family.

[JeepMom]

You know 10% is the minimum for tithes, not the end goal?

I'll find the exact verse later when I have time but it's along the lines of "give me at least 10%".

[FilingOnMyOwn]

Well, I can't say I completely disagree with it. Although conforming to your religion of choice is important, the bible tells you to honor the laws of your local government within reason. So although its wrong to kill, God loving people go to war all the time and kill people and it is not considered to be a mortal sin such as it would be if one went out and killed just because they wanted to.

Just something to think about.

[anonymuse]

And this flies in the face of other major rulings (Religious Liberty and Charitable Donations Protection Act of 1998) which supported tithing! I don't think it's the last we've heard of this. Here's another article from Utah (a state with one of the highest BK rates):

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_4310837

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645199727,00.html

I guess I'm in the middle on this one and can see things both ways. I'm trying to look at this objectively and considering church the same as any other non-profit charity. When I go to church, I might just give $5-10 now instead of $20 because that's all I can afford. I used to have my contributions to charity taken straight out of my paycheck--about $100 a month. Now, I feel bad because I hardly give. I've been sort of doubling up with some gifts though and it makes both parties feel good. For example, for mother's day I made a contribution to the Susan B. Komen fund for breast cancer in her name. I felt good, my mom loved it (she's a breast cancer survivor), and the charity was helped.

Some people see tithing as optional where others see it as a responsibility before all other bills so I'm sure there are going to be a lot of different viewpoints on this one.

If you look at this like people being allowed to contribute to their 401K during a Ch13, it seems like those allowed to contribute were more highly scrutinzed on their other expenses. I can see how they government would want you to make a choice--you can spend $50 on cable tv or your 401k (or on your contributions), but only one of them. When you start looking into "other reasonable expenses", everyone is going to have their own opinion. Are you allowed to pay for your children's private school--someone might argue that they could just go to public school? How about gymnastics or music lessons? What about the cost of cigarettes or alcohol? What about entertainment expenses? There are just so many gray areas.

I feel bad not giving like I used to. But you find other non-monetary ways to give and do that instead.

Still, the way they're interpretting the law is weird since it is only affecting people filing Ch 13 that are above the median income. (If the reporters are getting the story straight). What if you are in Ch 13 and below the median income? What if you are under the median income and filing a Ch 7 and having chartitable contributions on your schedule J--should they be allowed if it makes a difference between having enough disposable income to put you into a Ch 13?

[anonymuse]

Another blog:

http://www.acton.org/blog/?/archives/1153-Rendering-to-Caesar,-God,-and-MasterCard.html

As it stands, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Robert E. Littlefield, Jr. also seems to be calling for some clarification from Congress: “Whether tithing is or is not reasonable for a debtor in bankruptcy is for Washington to decide.... Until Congress amends [the 2005 Act], the court’s hands are tied and the tithing principles that this court once applied pre BAPCPA (the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005) have been effectively mooted.”

[SinkingFast]

W repeatedly talked about "Faith Based" groups, working with "Faith Based" groups, the importance and contributions of "Faith Based" groups, etc, during both campaigns and his Presidency.

I just figured when I saw Continued Charitable Giving being allowed on Line 40 of the Means Test, that it was W's "lobby" at work. That they had kept those contributions as allowable "expenses" even for people who were/are insolvent.

It will be interesting to see exactly how this one shakes out.

[NissanMan]

why not first devote all of your money towards getting yourself squared away either by filing bankruptcy or paying off the bills and then make up the difference to your church when you free up your money some. That way you help yourself out and you still hold on to your religious beliefs. No where in the bible does it say you must make a payment at certain intervals.

[poorme]

This sounds like the bk laws are in line with one of the country's founding principles...separation of church and state!

[robivi3]

The tendency towards dogma. In my youngerr days i was a strict tither. I guess that I have difficulty forming an opinion on this issue. On the one hand we live in a society where people are evading responsibilty in an number of ways. from 1984-85 I was a Church Treasurer. It was not a storefront and was Steeple -n- concrete established Church that still exists. I understand that people in business who have downturns and go into bankruptcy honestly may be dogmatic tithers, not seeing this as an arguable issue. It does not make them nuts, linatics or necessarily wrong. It is to many a moral issue that they must deal with, you cannot speak for them individually. A Judge has to weigh this and a person has to decide whether it violates his conscience to follow the Judges directive.

A Judge also has to consider several aspects, not the least of which is motive, fraud and possibly people prone to illegal activity laundering afew bucks by putting a check in the plate and cashing it. It has happened. This is a two sided issue but each person has to decide how he will react. Niether I nor anyone else can speak for a persons conscience. I am not a tither right now, my wife does out of her check, I know that it violates her conscience not do it. I could no more ask her not to do it than i could demand that she participate in some immoral act. It is just a matter of conscience, I can't steal from where I work, I mean down to wire connectors and hand cleaner, it is not that i don't use the stuff at home, I do, it is that I can't do it even though i would love a freebie, it totally violates my conscience. So I do understand some peoples problem with tithing as a BK issue.