A year after financial crisis, the consumer economy is dead

[banca rotta]

It bothers me that the stock market is near 10,000 while most of the population is struggling. In my opinion a crash is eminent.

Market's real value: 4,000 - 5,000 (If even that)

Consumers have no money. Many are living on credit now. Jobs keep getting lost. Prices keep going up. Governments keep taxing more and raising user fees. Something soon must give.

I try to be an optimist but I have to agree with this one. Absolutly nothing changed in 12 months except there's no signs of panic (yet) as opposed to a year ago today.

[GoingDown]

Froggers I'm glad your being sarcastic.

Things might be okay in Biden's little world. After all for 30+ years in the Senate he gave himself a generous raise every year, and generous benefits, all at yours and mine expense.

Truth is without manufacturing we cannot create enough jobs for people. With the current trade treaties we have lost to much manufacturing and in some cases the ability to manufacture certain goods. These treaties must be overhauled if the United States is to prosper going forward.

Exactly! Try finding almost anything actually made in the U.S.A. at Wal-Mart, or Target, etc.

And the products coming out of China, while cheaper, are absolute garbage. They don't last. They're worthless, so how cheap are they really?

I still remember a quote one of my relatives heard from some politician a long time ago -- "We can't build a strong economy delivering pizzas to each other." If only we had done something about it back then, we wouldn't be in such a mess.

[hereforinfo]

I don't have to show hard data. There is way too much anecdotal evidence. Every family has 2 cars now, cell phones, cable TV, multiple TV's, larger houses. People eat out often. We vacation more than ever. We spoil our children with gifts.

Yes, but that's being funded by credit cards and, during the housing boom, HELOCs. It's true that people have a lot more material possessions but there is also a lot more debt.

The more government programs we have, the more people feel entitled to stuff. There is no longer a clear distinction between wants and needs. Everyone needs everything and no one wants to be inconvenienced. For example, you see all the time on this board people charging a new laptop right before filing bankruptcy and others chime in to say "It's ok - you need a computer." Well that may be true that a computer is necessary to do a lot of things nowadays, but you can always go to the library and use one for free. Or you can buy a cheap, second hand desktop. No one needs a shiny new laptop with all the bells and whistles.

[killinstinct]

That's because these days no one wants to work the overtime or make the sacrifices your parents made. Back then if someone wanted to further their education, they worked nights and weekends and did whatever it took to pay for it and keep food on the table. They didn't take vacations and buy expensive cars they couldn't afford. They had a lot less free time.

Now no one wants to make those sacrifices. Instead, everyone feels entitled. Why work overtime to pay for that expensive tv when you can just charge it? Why work a second job to help pay for health insurance when you can just put your kids on the state plan for free? Who cares if someone else has to make sacrifices so you don't have to? It's all "me, me, me" and so many people in our society feel entitled to stuff without having to earn it or sacrifice for it. Personal responsibility is gone with the wind. You can see it all over the place where people complain that it's the bank's fault they can't pay back the loan.

Kids nowadays borrow as much as the banks will give them to pay for college, living expenses, and partying while in school. Starbucks, nice cars, expensive spring break trips, and luxury apartments off campus are the norm now. There's no such thing as a struggling college student anymore. They live the high life in college and then they live like a poor student when they graduate because of the loan payments. There are parents who have nothing saved for retirement, but bankrupt themselves trying to pay for their college kids' apartments and new cars because God forbid the kids actually live at home and commute to a local campus. Then who will have to foot the bill when those parents are destitute because they're too old to work and didn't save for retirement? Certainly not the children who've been given everything and convinced they are entitled. They've never had to make sacrifices, so why start now? It will be the taxpayers.

I'm not super religious, but AMEN and HALLELUJAH to that.

[killinstinct]

Regardless, I'm taking some personal responsiblility for my small piece of the pie. From now on there will be no overspending. If we don't have the cash, we don't buy it. Period. And now we don't have a choice anyway.....

If everyone comes to this realization, yes there will continue to be a correction but I firmly believe we will all be better off in the long run. We are spoiled in this country. Look at the rest of the world. Most of the world's population lives as peasants.

[JRScott]

That's because these days no one wants to work the overtime or make the sacrifices your parents made. Back then if someone wanted to further their education, they worked nights and weekends and did whatever it took to pay for it and keep food on the table. They didn't take vacations and buy expensive cars they couldn't afford. They had a lot less free time.

Now no one wants to make those sacrifices. Instead, everyone feels entitled. Why work overtime to pay for that expensive tv when you can just charge it? Why work a second job to help pay for health insurance when you can just put your kids on the state plan for free? Who cares if someone else has to make sacrifices so you don't have to? It's all "me, me, me" and so many people in our society feel entitled to stuff without having to earn it or sacrifice for it. Personal responsibility is gone with the wind. You can see it all over the place where people complain that it's the bank's fault they can't pay back the loan.

Kids nowadays borrow as much as the banks will give them to pay for college, living expenses, and partying while in school. Starbucks, nice cars, expensive spring break trips, and luxury apartments off campus are the norm now. There's no such thing as a struggling college student anymore. They live the high life in college and then they live like a poor student when they graduate because of the loan payments. There are parents who have nothing saved for retirement, but bankrupt themselves trying to pay for their college kids' apartments and new cars because God forbid the kids actually live at home and commute to a local campus. Then who will have to foot the bill when those parents are destitute because they're too old to work and didn't save for retirement? Certainly not the children who've been given everything and convinced they are entitled. They've never had to make sacrifices, so why start now? It will be the taxpayers.

Hear Hear

[hereforinfo]

I don't want to get into a anecdotal political discussion but my father right out of high school landed a welding job. No college required. Within a few years he earned near $80,000 a year in todays wages by working overtime. My mother likewise landed a job which paid over $12 an hour shortly out of high school in the late 60's or early 70's.

These days few kids have $80,000 factory jobs....

That's because these days no one wants to work the overtime or make the sacrifices your parents made. Back then if someone wanted to further their education, they worked nights and weekends and did whatever it took to pay for it and keep food on the table. They didn't take vacations and buy expensive cars they couldn't afford. They had a lot less free time.

Now no one wants to make those sacrifices. Instead, everyone feels entitled. Why work overtime to pay for that expensive tv when you can just charge it? Why work a second job to help pay for health insurance when you can just put your kids on the state plan for free? Who cares if someone else has to make sacrifices so you don't have to? It's all "me, me, me" and so many people in our society feel entitled to stuff without having to earn it or sacrifice for it. Personal responsibility is gone with the wind. You can see it all over the place where people complain that it's the bank's fault they can't pay back the loan.

Kids nowadays borrow as much as the banks will give them to pay for college, living expenses, and partying while in school. Starbucks, nice cars, expensive spring break trips, and luxury apartments off campus are the norm now. There's no such thing as a struggling college student anymore. They live the high life in college and then they live like a poor student when they graduate because of the loan payments. There are parents who have nothing saved for retirement, but bankrupt themselves trying to pay for their college kids' apartments and new cars because God forbid the kids actually live at home and commute to a local campus. Then who will have to foot the bill when those parents are destitute because they're too old to work and didn't save for retirement? Certainly not the children who've been given everything and convinced they are entitled. They've never had to make sacrifices, so why start now? It will be the taxpayers.

[backtoschool]

All the money Obama and Bush printed for the bailouts and stimulus plans will actually slow down the recovery just as FDR's meddling during the Great Depression lengthened that crisis.

All the money that we are printing now, will cause Hyperinflation some time in the near future.

Although, I really believe that without the bailouts the situation we are in now would have been much worse.

And FDR's New Deal didn't really lengthen or shorten the crisis. The New Deal had little effect. It was the military spending ramp up for WWII that finally pushed us out of the Great Depression.

[backtoschool]

It bothers me that the stock market is near 10,000 while most of the population is struggling. In my opinion a crash is eminent.

Market's real value: 4,000 - 5,000 (If even that)

Consumers have no money. Many are living on credit now. Jobs keep getting lost. Prices keep going up. Governments keep taxing more and raising user fees. Something soon must give.

From the early March lows, the Dow Jones Industrial Average has seen a spectacular rise of about 45%, marking the best six-month stock market rally since January of 1933.

What does that tell you about the so called stock "rally" and it's foundation in a growing economy?

[debtprison]

I don't have to show hard data. There is way too much anecdotal evidence. Every family has 2 cars now, cell phones, cable TV, multiple TV's, larger houses. People eat out often. We vacation more than ever. We spoil our children with gifts.

We'll have to agree to disagree I think. I believe most of that stuff is all DEBT and a lot of us here know the result of all that...

You might find this an interesting read though:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/business/28wages.html

[OhioFiler]

You are correct about women having to work now.
However as individuals, no, real wages ar ento up. Besides can you show hard data showing that real household incomes are up? I'm skeptical.

I don't have to show hard data. There is way too much anecdotal evidence. Every family has 2 cars now, cell phones, cable TV, multiple TV's, larger houses. People eat out often. We vacation more than ever. We spoil our children with gifts.

[debtprison]

Your parents were on the leading edge of what drives today's economy. Both of them worked. As a nation, we used to depend on a single income to support our households. Today, we generally depend on two incomes and as a family our wages are much higher than a generation ago because of that.

You are correct about women having to work now.
However as individuals, no, real wages ar ento up. Besides can you show hard data showing that real household incomes are up? I'm skeptical.

[OhioFiler]

Your parents were on the leading edge of what drives today's economy. Both of them worked. As a nation, we used to depend on a single income to support our households. Today, we generally depend on two incomes and as a family our wages are much higher than a generation ago because of that.

[debtprison]

Supporting evidence for a decline in real wages over the last few decades:

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2008/06/chart-of-day-real-hourly-earnings.html

Real hourly earnings peaked at $20.30 per hour in January 1973, on the eve of the first oil shock. Over the next 22 years, it plummeted to $16.39. It now stands at $17.94, almost 12% lower than at its peak 35 years ago. In May 2008, hourly earnings growth y-o-y stood at -0.62%.

Wages and Benefits: Real Wages (1964-2004)

http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/index.php?page=Wages+and+Benefits%3A+Real+Wages+%281964-2004%29

Then take into account debt from things like Student Loans. Debt which was required in order to earn the lower real wages. $30,000 in student loan debt is almost like having a mortgage to pay off.

When looking at the above data also keep in mind this is not factoring in data after the crash of September 2008. Real wages are plummeting and workers are being laid off left and right.

[debtprison]

I'm not sure what America you've been living in but in my America more people have more than anyone in any country and at any time in our country's history. We earn a lot more than our fathers and grandfathers earned and have the possessions to prove it.

It's a fact that real wages have been decreasing for decades when you look at the median person. Real wages are measured by taking into account things like inflation as well as earning numbers. The average person now earns less than say 1955 if you go by real wages.

Much of the lifestyle has been fueled by credit. That worked out very well for the people who could profit from interest. They got richer. Of course the house of cards started falling a little while ago.

I don't want to get into a anecdotal political discussion but my father right out of high school landed a welding job. No college required. Within a few years he earned near $80,000 a year in todays wages by working overtime. My mother likewise landed a job which paid over $12 an hour shortly out of high school in the late 60's or early 70's.

These days few kids have $80,000 factory jobs. And those who do have jobs which pay well like that often had to go to college and go into massive debt taking risk. Many with loans such that there is almost no possible way to have relief from -- even if they never make over $12 an hour in their entire life. Even bankruptcy wilol not free them. I am one of these people.

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