Well add another Judgment to my name....

[Freddy03]

School lunch has to go with food/apparel/personal, but school expenses you can break out on their own. Those are educational expenses and they get their own category and standard from line 38 of the means test. Dry cleaning goes with food/apparel/personal.

Thanks! So would school trips/supplies etc. be included in educational expenses? I have averaged about $50 a month on those types of things.

[debee]

Yes, just be prepared to document if req'd. The standard is $147.92 per kid. You're well below it. Also, don't forget that your lawyer should be going over all your expenses with you as a double check and confirmation of what will fly past your trustee.

[Pandora]

was in the hospital for 5 days was suppose to be an in and out quick thing but a long recovery time but now it turned out to be a long stay yuck and a bit longer recovery time..... and at least today i'm finally UP!!!

Ditto what Freddy said Hope you're up and feeling better soon Tobee

[SunshineGal]

Hi Freddy,

Take a closer look at your medical expenses. Are you sure that includes everything because you are under the IRS average. Remember, all dental, over the counter meds, etc., all go in that catagory. Does anyone where glasses or contacts? Does anyone need major dental work?

The trustee *could* argue as you are over on the food/personal by quite a bit, then you have $75 for entertainment and another $50 for pet care.

Do you have life insurance? disability? If not it may be time to get some.

Just my 2 cents.

[Freddy03]

Hi Freddy,

Take a closer look at your medical expenses. Are you sure that includes everything because you are under the IRS average. Remember, all dental, over the counter meds, etc., all go in that catagory. Does anyone where glasses or contacts? Does anyone need major dental work?

The trustee *could* argue as you are over on the food/personal by quite a bit, then you have $75 for entertainment and another $50 for pet care.

Do you have life insurance? disability? If not it may be time to get some.

Just my 2 cents.

Where can I find a list of the IRS average?
Edit: Nevermind I just found it.

It states for family of 4 - $1371 for food/personal/cleaning/clothing - we are just at $1350.

And I thought medical was $60 per person?

[Freddy03]

What about the housing and utilities??

Family of 4 is $1650 and this includes all utilities and taxes/hoa fees. My mortgage alone is $1650 (without taxes and insurance). Is this going to be a problem??

[SunshineGal]

Where can I find a list of the IRS average?
Edit: Nevermind I just found it.

It states for family of 4 - $1371 for food/personal/cleaning/clothing - we are just at $1350.

And I thought medical was $60 per person?

Technically, Medical is at $60 per person, didn't you list $210? (Every $30 helps, and if your expenses are higher use actual.) Your $50 pet care, home repair and entertainment should all be in that $1371. Not trying to stress you out, just telling you where I would argue if I was the UST. As for housing and utilities, I don't think you'll have a problem there. I also don't think you'll have a problem with the tolls and gas, chances are your trustee sees those all the time.

[Freddy03]

Technically, Medical is at $60 per person, didn't you list $210? (Every $30 helps, and if your expenses are higher use actual.) Your $50 pet care, home repair and entertainment should all be in that $1371. Not trying to stress you out, just telling you where I would argue if I was the UST. As for housing and utilities, I don't think you'll have a problem there. I also don't think you'll have a problem with the tolls and gas, chances are your trustee sees those all the time.

Ouch home repair too.......urgh! I'm in trouble...LOL

I think Dee mentioned to me before about the car repair. We have an older car. I couldn't I add more to that expense??

And my attorney said to add my student loan but I would feel more comfortable being a -DMI before I add it. It's about $108 a month.

Thanks!!

[debee]

What about the housing and utilities??

Family of 4 is $1650 and this includes all utilities and taxes/hoa fees. My mortgage alone is $1650 (without taxes and insurance). Is this going to be a problem??

The $1371 is only apparel & service (drycleaning, etc), meals at home or away (school lunches, etc), housekeeping supplies, and personal care products (including haircuts, etc).

The mortgage standard is separate from home maintenance. The mortgage standard only includes rent or mortgage, taxes, and insurance. In my area, it's over $1700 for a family of 4.

Home maintenance is a different local standard. In my zipcode, for a family of four, it's $614 and includes maintenance and repair, HOA, condo fees, gas, electric, trash, basic phone & cell. (Extra budget for long distance, caller ID, etc is also available to the extent it's necessary for "health & welfare or the production of income".

The only standard for entertainment that I've ever heard of is whatever your attorney thinks will get past your local trustee.

eta: you can read which items go into which category here: http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...ne_by_line.pdf
the local/nat'l standards can be found based on your zipcode by entering it on the nolo means test here: http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/nolo/

[Freddy03]

The $1371 is only apparel & service (drycleaning, etc), meals at home or away (school lunches, etc), housekeeping supplies, and personal care products (including haircuts, etc).

The mortgage standard is separate from home maintenance. The mortgage standard only includes rent or mortgage, taxes, and insurance. In my area, it's over $1700 for a family of 4.

Home maintenance is a different local standard. In my zipcode, for a family of four, it's $614 and includes maintenance and repair, HOA, condo fees, gas, electric, trash, basic phone & cell. (Extra budget for long distance, caller ID, etc is also available to the extent it's necessary for "health & welfare or the production of income".

The only standard for entertainment that I've ever heard of is whatever your attorney thinks will get past your local trustee.

eta: you can read which items go into which category here: http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...ne_by_line.pdf
the local/nat'l standards can be found based on your zipcode by entering it on the nolo means test here: http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/nolo/

Thanks Dee

When I checked here: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...104742,00.html it stated all mortgage and ultilites were included. I'm WAY over.

Will that be an issue?

Also sometimes I pay the neighborhood teen to watch my kids on days there isn't any school. It's not much but maybe $25 a day. Can I include that or do I need a receipt for it??

[debee]

Yeah, the standard on that link combines the two means test categories into one figure. So the $1650 includes the $1135 mortgage expense for your county and the $515 non-mortgage expense. They're separated on the Nolo means test & I always use the Nolo when looking at someone's expenses because it's easier to go back and forth from it to the USTP position paper for categories, etc.

You can normally include your actual expenses for babysitting, daycare, etc.

eta: Since the drycleaning is necessary for your spouse's "production of income" you might be able to keep that expense out of the Nat'l standard for food/apparel. Line 39 on the means test. Documentation is req'd & expenses must be actual and not merely anticipated. Start saving the dry-cleaning bills.

[Freddy03]

Yeah, the standard on that link combines the two means test categories into one figure. So the $1650 includes the $1135 mortgage expense for your county and the $515 non-mortgage expense. They're separated on the Nolo means test & I always use the Nolo when looking at someone's expenses because it's easier to go back and forth from it to the USTP position paper for categories, etc.

You can normally include your actual expenses for babysitting, daycare, etc.

Ok I think I'm confused or over looking it. So for my schedule J (not on the means test) is it ok that I'm over for mortgage/ultilities/taxes/ins/etc? Or I can only use the standard amounts?

Thanks

[debee]

On schedule J, you use the actual amounts. I was only explaining that when I look at the standards, I use the ones listed on a bankruptcy (rather than the IRS) website because they're already broken up the way they are in bankruptcy paperwork. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Since you're over the standard amount for home-related expenses, I would be sure to have documentation for everything in the category.

[Freddy03]

On schedule J, you use the actual amounts. I was only explaining that when I look at the standards, I use the ones listed on a bankruptcy (rather than the IRS) website because they're already broken up the way they are in bankruptcy paperwork. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Since you're over the standard amount for home-related expenses, I would be sure to have documentation for everything in the category.

Thanks! I have documents or bills rather for all insurance/hoa/taxes/mortgage and electric.

I added up what we paid for the year for electric and divided by 12 is that ok? or is it just six months?

[debee]

I would see where you get the biggest number and then ask your attorney. If they only ask for 6 months when they verify, and if 6 months gives you the higher expense, you could use that. If the 12 month gives you the higher expense, use that. I guess there's a bit of risk assessment in the decision and it would depend how much it varied. If everyone who files is coming in with the same average electric bill they might not ask for anything.

Finally, I really believe that you're better off waiting until the time is right to file a bk than to rush due to a judgment. Yes, there is the extra $250 or so to vacate, but it beats having a large bill with the trustee or worse, 5 years of a chapter 13 plan.

I posted the SunshineGal quote because I couldn't agree more. I know you're worried about garnishment, but you also want to get yourself as bullet-proof as you can before you file. If you were garnished, you might be able to squeak along by eating really really cheap for awhile. Hotdogs. It'd be like camping. And if it meant the difference between 5 years under someone else's thumb in a 13 and a clean break with a chapter 7, it would be worth it.