Filing pro se or not?

I'm asking this question for someone I know. This person needs to file a Ch 7, but she really can't afford an attorney. She has no assets, judgements filed against her, and a tax lien against her. Is it really complicated to file pro se, or should she try to save up for BK attorney? I've read some of the threads on here about the NOLO book. Does it walk you through the process step-by-step?

Well, the tax lien complicates matters (which means there is tax debt, does she know if the tax debt is dischargeable). Also, there are some extra steps when judgments are involved.

I haven't read the Nolo book so I don't know if it addresses these issues.

Generally, if people have a need, they find a way. Even in BK, when people say they have no money, that tends to be a knee-jerk reaction (I am filing BK, why would I have money)...kinda like when you walk into a retail store and the sales person says, "Can I help you", what is the first thing you say.."no, just looking". Most people, once they sit down, run the numbers, and let go of their pride (stop paying unsecued creditors, get a tax refund...if filing a chapter 13, stop making mortgage payments), can figure out a way to pay an attorney if they really need the help.

Well, the tax lien complicates matters (which means there is tax debt, does she know if the tax debt is dischargeable). Also, there are some extra steps when judgments are involved.

I haven't read the Nolo book so I don't know if it addresses these issues.

Generally, if people have a need, they find a way. Even in BK, when people say they have no money, that tends to be a knee-jerk reaction...kinda like when you walk into a retail store and the sales person says, "Can I help you", what is the first thing you say.."no, just looking". Most people can figure out a way to pay an attorney if they really need the help.
What type of tax debts are dischargeable?

HHM that was a wise answere. In this case, I think an attourny is appropriate.

I went pro se in my AP because I had to (no money). It did me well as the adversary attorney actually realized my so called creditor was a crook. It got kicked back to where it belonged and to date no action towards me/us.

What type of tax debts are dischargeable?


Read here
http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=24853

I have the Nolo book and frankly think it's overrated. If you know nothing about BK it's a good introduction. Rather than focus on anything in depth, it tries to cover all aspects of the BK process in a superficial way. The net result, however, is that if you are a no asset case in Chapter 7, about 2/3 of the book is irrelevant. In truth, if you hang out here for a bit you will learn everything you need to know. It's just not all in in one nice and organized place like the book.

As for pro se I think it has less to do with money and just how comfortable you feel about the law. You don't have to be an attorney to file pro se but I think an interest in the law helps. If you look at court building and the whole concept of walking in there on your own scares you, then maybe pro se is not the best for you. Finding a good attorney to help you is not just about the law, it's about having confidence and security about what you are doing. BK can be a nerve racking process and if you find the law intimidating then the money for an attorney is well worth it for the peace of mind alone. What's that saying about penny-wise and pound foolish....

Dst1 speaks the truth. I filed Pro Se because I couldn't afford an attorney without waiting several months to save up for one, and also because I wanted to be very aware of every single aspect of my BK; and my sense was that when you get an attorney, you are only partially aware of all of the communication, paperwork, etc. going on.

I used the NOLO book like a security blanket and this forum was definitely a source for all else.

Personal opinion: filing pro se bk requires a lot of time and organization. if you can't devote the time to ensuring you get it done right, pay someone who can.

I'm jumping into this a little late. As usual, HHM has accurately stated just about what I would state.

As a pro se filer (myself), I would tend to believe that a case such as the one stated, should be handled by an attorney. The IRS is one creditor that you don't want to mess up with.

When I say, don't mess up with the IRS, I mean that you could file pro se and not get into any additional trouble with the IRS, but you may miss some advantages of the Bankruptcy Code to leverage and or even discharge some tax debt!!!

Have your friend stop paying their credit cards... and voila... money to pay the attorney is there!

My thoughts as a soon-to-be default debtor.

Im preparing before the storm. My line of credit is calling in their balance. My CC doubled the int. rate. 1 month till I cant pay. BTW- I read about the Bankruptcy Score and it makes sense why all of a sudden this is happening. Ive been on this forum for a week. Excellent and I thank everyone for their time. I have The NOLO book.
It is basic compared to what's here. Worth $20-yes. I thought about filing pro se. Considering Im doing most of the leg work. But, was said about courts and such, Im slowly changing my mind. I ran a quick inventory of personal property, have no IRA, no homestead. The PP may have enough non-exempt value for an asset case. Most of this is in office equipment, tools, machinery, coin collection, hunting/fishing gear,etc. Not talking about alot, and I understand the "garage-sale value" concept. Then there's the startup side business which generated online $$. Along w/the fact that Im not married but living together for 20yrs, she owns everything except my PP. Also my biz escrow bank account for agency billing, which I cant figure out.
For me, these seem complicated enough and Im not the best person to file paperwork. Not a big case for an attorney but getting too big for me. This may be worth the $2-3k retainer to try to save some non-exempts and do it right. Im tired and I havn't really started, but Ill keep reading your comments..

Dst1 speaks the truth. I filed Pro Se because I couldn't afford an attorney without waiting several months to save up for one, and also because I wanted to be very aware of every single aspect of my BK; and my sense was that when you get an attorney, you are only partially aware of all of the communication, paperwork, etc. going on.

I used the NOLO book like a security blanket and this forum was definitely a source for all else.

Personal opinion: filing pro se bk requires a lot of time and organization. if you can't devote the time to ensuring you get it done right, pay someone who can.
I agree with soleprop.

I was a pro se filer and it took me months of research and plenty of drafts before I filed for Chap 7. I did rely on the Nolo book, but it did not help me with every single question or issue. I still had to rely on forums like this to iron out some details. Even so, I still made some mistakes and the trustee was brutal with me. Trustees don't make a lot of money and they really hate dealing with pro se filers (IMHO) because they take more time and effort on the trustee's part.

Remember, a trustee is NOT a lawyer and during your creditor's meeting they DO NOT answer questions. They simply present the issues or problems in the paperwork (if any), to which you or your lawyer replies, "Thank you. We will file an amendment."

I filed Chap 7 in 1987 (when I had a mere 12K in debt). Everything has changed as of 2005 and the BK lawyers have the upper hand given the complexity of the current process.

My informal recommendation is for your friend to find a low cost attorney, especially given that there are taxes involved. I had no taxes involved in my BK, did not have a job, and spent hundreds of hours preparing my filing (including all of the reading and research).

Good luck.

"Remember, a trustee is NOT a lawyer and during your creditor's meeting they DO NOT answer questions. They simply present the issues or problems in the paperwork (if any), to which you or your lawyer replies, "Thank you. We will file an amendment."

Actually, the Trustee is a lawyer, you can kind of look at him as the lawyer representing the creditors as a whole. Although he does not actually "represent" them lets say in the case of an AP or other matter, he is their to assure equity in the distribution of the BK estate and to make sure the process adheres to the code, etc.

Most Trustees are practicing BK attorneys, so your Trustee may be representing another debtor in their BK case.

Most Trustees are practicing BK attorneys, so your Trustee may be representing another debtor in their BK case.And, to make it even more fun, some Trustees, like mine, have one or two staff attorneys! :)

Oooh. Three lawyers!

Q: How many lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Three. One to climb the ladder. One to shake it. And one to sue the ladder company.

I read the post here about filing pro se. I remember back in 2007 when I first started this journey, I found pro se interesting because it reminded me of my legal days in law at Loyola. So for those of you who are comfortable with details, and I mean you are a person who will set aside time, read line by line, document notes and make sure you double check each time you have to appear at court for all documents, I really do not think you will have any problem with the process. The NOLO book was purchased by me, but it did not help me in the lease. The book that really helped me believe it or not was Filing Bankruptcy for Dummies. Beside the obvious humor, the information was dead on. And it was also written the way I could understand it.

Also having a bankruptcy helpdesk in Illinois helped a lot as well. I was taken step by step through the entire process. I did as I was told to do via the helpdesk and I reviewed errors pointed out by the helpdesk person, returned with corrections each time I was told to do so, made copies of all papers they wanted and showed up at court when asked.

Also on my own I would go to the court rooms of other cases and sit in just to get a feel of what to expect. This helped a lot.

Filed July-07

341 meeting Aug-07

Discharged Sept 07

Closed Nov-07 yea....yea...yea....

Thats good advise, going to the court house & sitting through cases, just to know what to expect. I'm going to do that!
My husband & I are filing ch 7 but have a small business (no assetts) that we are puting in our ch 7. I am using a para legal to help me with the paperwork. I hope this is a good idea. She has worked for many bk attorneys & seems to know her stuff. Has anyone else that is pro se, used a para legal? Any advise is apprecited. I have also studied this board daily for weeks. When I forst came here I was having a breakdown from being over whelmed, now I am slowly understanding all the bk language.
I am so thankful for this forum.

I have read some thoughts on the BK Forum that have me thinking. Does anyone know of these online full service bk preparers? They do seem better than doing it yourself.

[removed URL, we do not support online doc prep services]

I used one of these services and they had a similar "guarantee"...

Our documents are always up-to-date and accepted in every bankruptcy court in every state. We guarantee it.

There documents are indeed "accepted" in every bankruptcy court. However, the numbers they used on the documents were NOT up to date. :)

It was helpful though, in that it did put together the package of things I needed, then I had to go through and modify a bunch of the forms (manually). I don't think it's worth $200 or even $149 for this "service".

Many of these "preparers" are really software driven. They have a website where you answer hundreds of questions. Then the software generates the filing package in PDF format. Again, it was useful for me, but I think I paid $200 last year for the Chapter 13 services.

They have poor customer support and would not even respond to me when I told them there software had the wrong numbers (BACPA Allowable Limits from the UST). They did respond to my other questions related to entering information into their site. :) They also never responded when I asked for a refund since their numbers were wrong.

Caveat Emptor

[I]Is it possible to successfully navigate through a simple chap 7 with an online, full service preparer? If not, then is there a better way to get the paperwork done? I mean, without coughing up a lung for an attorney.
These two seems interesting. I have found good reports in regards to their claims.

[removed URL's, we do not support online doc prep services]

As HHM (a moderator) already edited out your two posting, please read carefully what I wrote above. I really do mean Caveat Emptor when I write it. There's a reason this site doesn't "support" or "endorse" these preparers.

You are better off finding a local Paralegal who does bankruptcy prep work.

I did not nor do I know what "Caveat Emptor" means. I am just looking for answers. I have spent quite some time just trying to ask a question. Can't find a thread to do so. I was unaware of the hostility towards those services. Thanks for your effort, I guess. You folks know of another place I can find answers? Good luck with your forum.

I did not nor do I know what "Caveat Emptor" means. I am just looking for answers. I have spent quite some time just trying to ask a question. Can't find a thread to do so. I was unaware of the hostility towards those services. Thanks for your effort, I guess. You folks know of another place I can find answers? Good luck with your forum.I believe that I was very specific with answering your question.

Again Again, I have used one of those services.
I did not have very good service from them.
You may find it better to use a local service provider (preparer who is a paralegal).
It's the site, not myself, that prevents "advertising" from third party sites that have not been endorsed by the site.
Because of the specific issues with these types of on-line "preparers", the site will probably never endorse or encourage someone to use one of them.
From my personal experience, this is probably a good thing that they don't.
Those sites cannot provide any legal assistance, and they charge as much as a paralegal would charge you. Yet, you don't get great support and can be literally stuck all weekend (as I was when preparing mine) waiting for an answer to a "bug" in their software. As a point of fact, they never answered several of my questions -- regarding inaccurate data -- and I had to file after 7 days of waiting for an answer. (Not that a human/paralegal won't leave you hanging).

For those reasons, i wrote "Caveat Emptor" which is Latin -- and I thought universal -- for "Buyer Beware".

As I wrote earlier, it was helpful in showing me what the complete package looked like... but I ended up doing much of the package by hand (fillable PDFs from the Bankruptcy District website).

(Note: all of the forms are available from your local District's website anyhow.)

I understand, it makes sense, advertising sites. I have seen so many urls on this forum that I did not think it was an issue. "Buyer Beware"...ok. So perhaps I should search out a paralegal. Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site. It seems to be a more solid one. I just went through 3 other forums and read a few moderator answers. I know more than they do. But I got the main thrust of that info here. So, I will keep reading. Maybe I will find a way to ask questions in a new thread or maybe I will come across one that's kinda like the questions I have.

I understand, it makes sense, advertising sites. I have seen so many urls on this forum that I did not think it was an issue. "Buyer Beware"...ok. So perhaps I should search out a paralegal. Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site. It seems to be a more solid one. I just went through 3 other forums and read a few moderator answers. I know more than they do. But I got the main thrust of that info here. So, I will keep reading. Maybe I will find a way to ask questions in a new thread or maybe I will come across one that's kinda like the questions I have.Welcome to the Forum. This really is the best one. :)

You can start any question you want (new thread). Just try to put it into the correct section of the site, as some people only read certain sections. I tend to stick to General, General Bankruptcy Talk, Chapter 7, Chapter 13, and the Pro Se forums... although I do look around somewhat.

You are free to ask any question you like. However, please do not open an "old" discussion because it appears to be like your question. This is discouraged and the moderators will tell you when you do that.

If you are filing pro se then you should ask your questions in the Pro Se / Pro Per section of the website. It was specifically created for people like you and I... and I read and participate in the sub-forum significantly.

Umm, when you click into any particular title thread, Pro Se filing, Chapter 7, General Bankruptcy etc, there is a button at the top left that says, New Thread, click on that and you start your own question.

Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site.

Don't feel bad, I just caught on to the "Subscrbe" function and I have been posting here for 6 months. Ya gotta start somewhere in the forum world.

Don't take any mod edits as personal attacks, they are just doing their jobs, I goofed many times with posting issues when I first started using forums too, the mods will just tell you about the rules and then move on. They kind of have to be succint or they would be spending half their lives writing lengthy posts about forum rules.

Welcome and ask any questions you need to, the people here are very helpful.

DD

I have been asking and getting great answers. I think the mods soon will have their hands full. If cap and trade becomes law, there may be a whole lot more personal and business bankruptcies. That is, when ALL energy costs double almost overnight.
I still have more to learn and I will keep reading. Thanx for your reasoning and observations.

You are better off finding a local Paralegal who does bankruptcy prep work.
What's the best way to search for one online? I just tried several google searches, for Paralegal services in my state, with bad results. What are good keywords to use?

What's the best way to search for one online? I just tried several google searches, for Paralegal services in my state, with bad results. What are good keywords to use?I'm not sure many advertise. The real problem in this area, of non-attorneys preparing petitions, is any appearance that the non-attorney counseled or otherwise instructed the Debtor what to put on the paper. :)

A paralegal can't even, technically, provide a "checklist" or summary sheet for a debtor to complete! The Paralegal can only hand the debtor the requisite (official) forms!

Imagine handing a B22A/B22C to an average debtor and say complete this? Imagine not being to answer the question as to whether they should include the car or not? Trustees have been looking into this non-attorney assistance and have brought the full power of the court upon those who continue to do it. I think there are few (paralegals) who will do this outside an attorney's practice (as the attorney's clerk/assistant).

I'm not sure many advertise. The real problem in this area, of non-attorneys preparing petitions, is any appearance that the non-attorney counseled or otherwise instructed the Debtor what to put on the paper. :)

A paralegal can't even, technically, provide a "checklist" or summary sheet for a debtor to complete! The Paralegal can only hand the debtor the requisite (official) forms!

Imagine handing a B22A/B22C to an average debtor and say complete this? Imagine not being to answer the question as to whether they should include the car or not? Trustees have been looking into this non-attorney assistance and have brought the full power of the court upon those who continue to do it. I think there are few (paralegals) who will do this outside an attorney's practice (as the attorney's clerk/assistant).

I guess what you're saying is that I have to find one to help me, secretly? It SHOULDN'T be Illegal for an experienced Paralegal to offer advice, and to help people file bankruptcy. On a buyer beware basis. Lawyers are a bunch of overpriced douchbags. They've lobbied to do everything possible, to squash competition, and prevent people from seeking alternatives. Just ranting out of frustration, here...

I guess what you're saying is that I have to find one to help me, secretly? It SHOULDN'T be Illegal for an experienced Paralegal to offer advice, and to help people file bankruptcy. On a buyer beware basis. Lawyers are a bunch of overpriced douchbags. They've lobbied to do everything possible, to squash competition, and prevent people from seeking alternatives. Just ranting out of frustration, here...

LOL, just because you can't afford a lawyer (or aren't willing to figure out how to afford a lawyer), doesn't mean they are "overpriced". Are Doctor's overpriced douchbags? Are tile setters overpriced, are drywall guys overpriced.

I go back and forth on this issue with doc prep para legals. In principal, I belevie competition is good. However, these new regulations about para legal doc prep came more from the BK judges, not the BK Attorneys, as more of a consumer protection issue. Before 2005, these services marketing was borderline because they were leading consumers to beleive they were getting "almost" the same level of service as an attorney, which was not the case. Also, frankly, most of these doc prep services do a crap job, or more accurately, it's not that they do a bad job, but the info they put on the forms is only as good as the info the debtor provides, and without legal guidance to understand the questions on SOFA (Statement of Financial Affairs), or understand what is an acceptable budget, these petitions that get prepared are very risky for the debtor.

LOL, just because you can't afford a lawyer (or aren't willing to figure out how to afford a lawyer), doesn't mean they are "overpriced". Are Doctor's overpriced douchbags? Are tile setters overpriced, are drywall guys overpriced.
I don't have to tile floors, and have drywall put up, If I don't have the money. I DON'T HAVE to do it. But I HAVE to file Bankruptcy. I have Health insurance, so medical care affordability isn't an issue either. I rarely go to see doctors, anyway. $1,500.00-$2,500.00 is a ridiculously high fee, for giving advice on what to claim, or put on paperwork, and then filing it. If the lawyer were able to speak for me at the 341, then it would be worth it. But then the the douche would probably raise the fee even higher.

I go back and forth on this issue with doc prep para legals. In principal, I belevie competition is good. However, these new regulations about para legal doc prep came more from the BK judges, not the BK Attorneys, as more of a consumer protection issue.
Are you telling me that BK judges, and BK lawyers, don't have a common interest? That's not the way I see it. The powerful always look out for each other....and they don't want to lose business. A judge is another lawyer, after all. From what I've read, you haven't been back and forth, or pro competition, about anything. You've always been pro lawyer, and anti pro se, every time I've read your replies on this topic. But maybe I missed something, so I'll keep reading. You mind if I ask...have you ever been a BK lawyer, yourself? Even when I come into what's suppose to be, a pro se section of the forum, it seems people are usually more discouraged, than encouraged, to do it.

Before 2005, these services marketing was borderline because they were leading consumers to beleive they were getting "almost" the same level of service as an attorney, which was not the case. Also, frankly, most of these doc prep services do a crap job, or more accurately, it's not that they do a bad job, but the info they put on the forms is only as good as the info the debtor provides, and without legal guidance to understand the questions on SOFA (Statement of Financial Affairs), or understand what is an acceptable budget, these petitions that get prepared are very risky for the debtor.

I'm talking more about local, experienced, and competent paralegals. Not online preparers that use some type of fallible software. Are you telling me that an experienced paralegal wouldn't be capable of knowing the probabilities in a chapter 7 case, and be capable of given good advice? I think they would.... If they weren't so busy cowering under their desks for fear of what the BK judges, Lawyers, and the law, would do to them. The fact that it's not easy to find any local Paralegals preparers with a simple google search, speaks volumes. Y'all intimidated them, obviously.

As bad as the law is, preventing ALL Paralegals from giving any advice, I'm stuck with it. Nothing that I say on an internet forum, is gonna change it. But my reasons for being frustrated are legitimate. I can go on, and on, about this topic. But I'm going to end this exchange, before it gets heated. So you'll get to swoop in, and have the last word. I probably won't agree with some of your replies, but don't take my silence, as a concession. I want to continue having access to this forum, and don't want to risk getting banned. At least until my BK is settled.

Are you telling me that BK judges, and BK lawyers, don't have a common interest? That's not the way I see it. The powerful always look out for each other....and they don't want to lose business. A judge is another lawyer, after all. From what I've read, you haven't been back and forth, or pro competition, about anything. You've always been pro lawyer, and anti pro se, every time I've read your replies on this topic. But maybe I missed something, so I'll keep reading. You mind if I ask...have you ever been a BK lawyer, yourself? Even when I come into what's suppose to be, a pro se section of the forum, it seems people are usually more discouraged, than encouraged, to do it. I'm not answering for HHM. I'm answering for pro se filers. :)

Bankruptcy Judges are just impartial referees of something that is really the U.S. Trustee's process. While BK Judges have judicial power (and the power of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court behind them), I never saw them (BK Judges) as looking out for anyone but the law itself. If the BK Judges were pro-lawyers, then they'd have a tough time choosing sides in court. Now if you asked about the Trustee, I would agree that they "may" be advocates. I wouldn't blame the BK Court on the no paralegals practicing law rules. This is standard in all courts.

I do know this as well. They recently had "new" local rules and Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedures up for approval, and it was open to everyone to write an opinion. Yes, everyone. That speaks volumes to the Court's view of participation of how the rules are set.

As for filing pro se, I will always caution certain people after I read what they have posted and assessed what type of case they are (asset/no-asset). I will continue to caution pro se filers in asset cases because that's where you can actually lose property.

I asked for this section of the forum to be created so that pro se filers could ask questions outside the general forum areas. So, posts here will be looked at in much more detail by people familiar with pro se filings. I will be the first to admit that I have seen several forum members post in this section (and throughout the site) that should not file pro se because they were totally lost and/or had really complex tax and property issues.

I hope you stay. This really is the best Bankruptcy Forum bar none.

Well, you're obviously anti-lawyer beyond the scope of simply BK and a bit on the conspiracy theory side of the spectrum, so debating those issues is pointless. I am not anti pro se or pro lawyer, but I am pro "using good judgment" and "making informed decisions", and against making "snap judgments"

I was recently talking with a BK lawyer friend of mine, a prospect came to his office for a consult. The guy already filed a chapter 7 pro se, but was facing an Adversarial Proceeding by one of his creditors. The guy did a cash advance from a credit card in Feb 2008, used the money to pay back his mother, and 2 weeks later filed Chapter 7 Bk. His first attempt at filing BK was dismissed because he didn't get all his paperwork filed in time. He filed again in a few weeks. The BK Trustee went after his mother for the $4,000 (preferential transfer), so the debtor agreed to pay that. Now, the creditor is filing adversarial proceeding against the debtor disputing discharge of the debt (the $4,000 cash advance) because the cash advance was done within 70 days of filing BK. And the debtor is going to lose that AP 9 ways to Sunday. The guy apparently wasn't some dumb hick, he was normal, smart, but thought he could "handle it" on his own and save the attorney fee. Guess what, his BK is going to cost him $8,000 (the $4,000 that was the preferential transfer to his mother, and the $4,000 fraudulent use of credit). If he would have hired an attorney, even a cheap attorney for $1,500, none of that would have happened.

And when it comes to these types of stories, it is more common than you think. It really isn't the straight forward chapter 7's that are being filed pro se, those cases tend to go to attorneys because the people filing them are not educated enough to file the case on their own, or are not comfortable doing so. Pro Se filers tend to be better educated, arrogant (not necessarily in a negative sense, no offense justbroke :) ), and a little more well off, so their chapter 7's are rarely straight forward and simple. My concern is that many pro se filers get sticker shock at attorney cost, and never really sit down and figure out how they will come up with the money (not everyone, mind you). It is that lack of commitment and foresight that causes their cases, when filed pro se, to usually go sideways. Most people have time to put fees together and can figure out how to come up with $2,000 (for most filers, simply stopping paying credit cards can come up with the fees in 3 months). The truly poor don't need to file BK because they can't get credit anyway. It is the middle class that files BK, and for the most part, when push come to shove, they can come up with $2,000, but they let mental and emotional barriers prevent them from taking action.

As for helping pro se or not, I have well over 8,500 posts on this forum, hell, I bet if you put them all together, they would be more comprehensive than the Nolo Book :) Those 8,500 + posts are here to help everyone, including pro se filers. Bottom line, most pro se filers file pro se for the wrong reason, IMHO

As for helping pro se or not, I have well over 8,500 posts on this forum, hell, I bet if you put them all together, they would be more comprehensive than the Nolo Book :) Those 8,500 + posts are here to help everyone, including pro se filers. Bottom line, most pro se filers file pro se for the wrong reason, IMHODefinitely better than the NoLo Book!

Bottom line, most pro se filers file pro se for the wrong reason, IMHO

I would tend to agree with HHM and I am a pro se filer.

I can give you my situation as a background, and also point to the help I received on the forum that wasn't available, I am fairly certain in any BK book.

I had a wage garnishment from a creditor ( small claims issue) and also had a tax levy at the same time.

25% of my wages were being garnished. I work in an industry that was hit pretty hard by the recession (fine dining, nobody wants to pay a minimum of 100.00 for dinner when their 401K/portfolios were just drained of 50% of their value) So my income was getting worse every month and shifs cut.

So on top of the 25% I was probably making 30-40% less every month.

I had a lot of medical debt, small amount of CC debt, cause the medical crap had already wiped out my credit worthiness.

I was living on the edge, barely making it with my income due to the economy and there was no way I would be able to save 2000.00, my tax returns were getting offset, so couldn't even wait it out until I might receive a refund. My family was broke, no one to borrow from. I was calling utilities and begging for extra time and basically just trying to make rent and have enough gas money to get to work, it was bad!

I thought of every option I could to try and find money for an attorney, there just weren't any options and I could not live with the garnishment any more.

I knew I had absolutely no assets, I had literally nothing to lose. I knew I was risking dismissal if I screwed up, but I did weeks and weeks of research, and prepared well. Lurked on this forum for awhile and finally joined. I hadn't had an active CC for over three years, so no worries of creditor objections by CC companies.My income for 2007 was under 20,000.00, so no worries about means test issues.

I filed pro-se.

I had a little goof, forgot to turn in one page of the means test and was dismissed.

I appealed to this board for help, and Justbroke jumped right in and saved my ass with much needed help on a motion to vacate dismissal. Reinstated my BK a couple days later. I would never had found this information in a BK book and I would have needed an attorneys help if Justbroke hadn't been so well versed in BK procedure.

The 2000.00 to file would have been well worth the peace of mind and the hours I spent researching BK law. Would have paid it in a heartbeat if it was available somewhere, it just wasn't.

Another factor in me filiing when I did:
Where I live in Cal, crappy homes were selling for 400,000.00 when the RE market was booming. I would never had been able to qualify income wise for a home. And especally with all the medical debt

When the bubble burst, and home values here were dropping to 40-50% below the market highs, I knew that if I filed soon, the chances that the market would fully recover within 2-3 years were pretty slim, so the timing of the BK filing was right on for me in terms of possibly obtaining a mortgage within 2-3 years post discharge.

So not only did BK wipe out my medical debt and take those worries away, it will give me a shot at homeownership in a few years while being debt free.

I don't plan on obtaining new credit as a means to buy anything, though I may try to obtain a secured CC just to have some revolving credit report on my CC and bump my scores up a bit over the next couple of years to help improve my scores and perhaps get a better interest rate on the mortgage.

I may also finance a cheap commuter car, but only if it makes solid financal sense (gas savings/monthly payment).

My point is, I guess, if you are going to file pro-se, you really need to look at all the risks involved, really be sure that you are not going to put anything on the line over the cost of paying an attorney. If you are at risk of losing anything above the attorneys fees ( lets say over 2000.00 as an example) pay for an attorney. It is worth it just not to sit and type the stuff on to the petitions and then recheck and recheck and recheck and then research some more, and them worry.

You have one mis-step like a preferential payment or forget a creditor, or forget to exempt an asset, you could be spending well over the 2000.00 just to defend or buy back something you actually already own.


In my case it was doable, and I had very little at risk, so it worked out for me, but money spent on a good BK attorney is a very wise investment!

DD

wow! I think I have found the best forum for me with this one!! Great stuff. Appreciate the sharing. Will post when I get some questions together!

Ali

If you have a simple no asset Ch.7, can pass the means test and can follow directions and fill out forms, then I would recommend filing pro se all the way and not waste your money on a lawyer. It was worth the time and effort for me, I didn't have the money and knew my case was about as simple as it could be. I also felt confident in filling out the forms and made sure to understand what I was filling out. So far it's gone really smooth on both the filing and the 341.

If you have a more complicated filing, I would have to say go with the lawyer, they can help save your bacon if needed and should have a way better understanding of the more complicated issues that can arise.

i went the middle road. i couldnt afford a full service lawyer and needed to file asap. after 3 consultations, i expressed how expensive filing for BK was and joked if i had that kind of money laying around i wouldnt be in the position im in. he mentioned that as my BK was simple, they could just do the paperwork for me and i could file myself, and it would only cost $499. i was scared/lerry of going solo and making some dumb mistake, didnt want to spend $2k, and could swing $500, so i went that route. it has worked great so far. just another option out there.

When the bubble burst, and home values here were dropping to 40-50% below the market highs, I knew that if I filed soon, the chances that the market would fully recover within 2-3 years were pretty slim, so the timing of the BK filing was right on for me in terms of possibly obtaining a mortgage within 2-3 years post discharge.

So not only did BK wipe out my medical debt and take those worries away, it will give me a shot at homeownership in a few years while being debt free.


I have decided to stay on this forum past discharge and past the time that our Chapter 13 is off our credit reports (7 years) and what I am finding out from that time is not the bed of roses everything thinks it is. I don't think there are too many posters on here in that position.

Be careful as to your second paragraph above. Seven years has past since our BK filing and now our credit reports are all clean from BK. We have been stellar in our credit and bills since filing. I recently applied for a Visa associated with a major national pet store online to take advantage of discounts they offer and free shipping, as we order from them often. I was denied not due to the BK but for not having enough recent revolving credit on my credit history even though we have a new car, refinancing and 2 CC's during the past 3 years. Everyone thinks by wiping things out with BK all will be fine and rosy afterwards and the mortgages and credit cards are easily obtained; not true. If you are established enough in several years to apply for a mortgage with a good downpayment, all on time payments with everything else (utilities, etc.), that gives you a leg up but the Bk on your records at that time (won't be off for 10 years if a 7) it will work against you and haunt you for 10 years and even thereafter. It's the reestablishing that is the key. You cannot do too much nor too little and for most who try to obtain credit to reestablish credit, they get denied. I find it highly ironic after going through all this, coming out of it in great shape with great household income, that you get denied for not having enough credit. If we did not already have a house and mortgage, I wonder how that would have affected us had we been looking for a mortgage with brand spanking new credit reports will all good stuff on there for the past 3 years after discharge. The only things remaining that were former are our formerly paid off vehicles and our paid off mortgage when we refinanced in 2006.