Filing pro se or not?

[Flamingo]

When the bubble burst, and home values here were dropping to 40-50% below the market highs, I knew that if I filed soon, the chances that the market would fully recover within 2-3 years were pretty slim, so the timing of the BK filing was right on for me in terms of possibly obtaining a mortgage within 2-3 years post discharge.

So not only did BK wipe out my medical debt and take those worries away, it will give me a shot at homeownership in a few years while being debt free.

I have decided to stay on this forum past discharge and past the time that our Chapter 13 is off our credit reports (7 years) and what I am finding out from that time is not the bed of roses everything thinks it is. I don't think there are too many posters on here in that position.

Be careful as to your second paragraph above. Seven years has past since our BK filing and now our credit reports are all clean from BK. We have been stellar in our credit and bills since filing. I recently applied for a Visa associated with a major national pet store online to take advantage of discounts they offer and free shipping, as we order from them often. I was denied not due to the BK but for not having enough recent revolving credit on my credit history even though we have a new car, refinancing and 2 CC's during the past 3 years. Everyone thinks by wiping things out with BK all will be fine and rosy afterwards and the mortgages and credit cards are easily obtained; not true. If you are established enough in several years to apply for a mortgage with a good downpayment, all on time payments with everything else (utilities, etc.), that gives you a leg up but the Bk on your records at that time (won't be off for 10 years if a 7) it will work against you and haunt you for 10 years and even thereafter. It's the reestablishing that is the key. You cannot do too much nor too little and for most who try to obtain credit to reestablish credit, they get denied. I find it highly ironic after going through all this, coming out of it in great shape with great household income, that you get denied for not having enough credit. If we did not already have a house and mortgage, I wonder how that would have affected us had we been looking for a mortgage with brand spanking new credit reports will all good stuff on there for the past 3 years after discharge. The only things remaining that were former are our formerly paid off vehicles and our paid off mortgage when we refinanced in 2006.

[MrSmithster]

i went the middle road. i couldnt afford a full service lawyer and needed to file asap. after 3 consultations, i expressed how expensive filing for BK was and joked if i had that kind of money laying around i wouldnt be in the position im in. he mentioned that as my BK was simple, they could just do the paperwork for me and i could file myself, and it would only cost $499. i was scared/lerry of going solo and making some dumb mistake, didnt want to spend $2k, and could swing $500, so i went that route. it has worked great so far. just another option out there.

[jj26]

If you have a simple no asset Ch.7, can pass the means test and can follow directions and fill out forms, then I would recommend filing pro se all the way and not waste your money on a lawyer. It was worth the time and effort for me, I didn't have the money and knew my case was about as simple as it could be. I also felt confident in filling out the forms and made sure to understand what I was filling out. So far it's gone really smooth on both the filing and the 341.

If you have a more complicated filing, I would have to say go with the lawyer, they can help save your bacon if needed and should have a way better understanding of the more complicated issues that can arise.

[alltappedout]

wow! I think I have found the best forum for me with this one!! Great stuff. Appreciate the sharing. Will post when I get some questions together!

Ali

[dingdong]

Bottom line, most pro se filers file pro se for the wrong reason, IMHO

I would tend to agree with HHM and I am a pro se filer.

I can give you my situation as a background, and also point to the help I received on the forum that wasn't available, I am fairly certain in any BK book.

I had a wage garnishment from a creditor ( small claims issue) and also had a tax levy at the same time.

25% of my wages were being garnished. I work in an industry that was hit pretty hard by the recession (fine dining, nobody wants to pay a minimum of 100.00 for dinner when their 401K/portfolios were just drained of 50% of their value) So my income was getting worse every month and shifs cut.

So on top of the 25% I was probably making 30-40% less every month.

I had a lot of medical debt, small amount of CC debt, cause the medical crap had already wiped out my credit worthiness.

I was living on the edge, barely making it with my income due to the economy and there was no way I would be able to save 2000.00, my tax returns were getting offset, so couldn't even wait it out until I might receive a refund. My family was broke, no one to borrow from. I was calling utilities and begging for extra time and basically just trying to make rent and have enough gas money to get to work, it was bad!

I thought of every option I could to try and find money for an attorney, there just weren't any options and I could not live with the garnishment any more.

I knew I had absolutely no assets, I had literally nothing to lose. I knew I was risking dismissal if I screwed up, but I did weeks and weeks of research, and prepared well. Lurked on this forum for awhile and finally joined. I hadn't had an active CC for over three years, so no worries of creditor objections by CC companies.My income for 2007 was under 20,000.00, so no worries about means test issues.

I filed pro-se.

I had a little goof, forgot to turn in one page of the means test and was dismissed.

I appealed to this board for help, and Justbroke jumped right in and saved my ass with much needed help on a motion to vacate dismissal. Reinstated my BK a couple days later. I would never had found this information in a BK book and I would have needed an attorneys help if Justbroke hadn't been so well versed in BK procedure.

The 2000.00 to file would have been well worth the peace of mind and the hours I spent researching BK law. Would have paid it in a heartbeat if it was available somewhere, it just wasn't.

Another factor in me filiing when I did:
Where I live in Cal, crappy homes were selling for 400,000.00 when the RE market was booming. I would never had been able to qualify income wise for a home. And especally with all the medical debt

When the bubble burst, and home values here were dropping to 40-50% below the market highs, I knew that if I filed soon, the chances that the market would fully recover within 2-3 years were pretty slim, so the timing of the BK filing was right on for me in terms of possibly obtaining a mortgage within 2-3 years post discharge.

So not only did BK wipe out my medical debt and take those worries away, it will give me a shot at homeownership in a few years while being debt free.

I don't plan on obtaining new credit as a means to buy anything, though I may try to obtain a secured CC just to have some revolving credit report on my CC and bump my scores up a bit over the next couple of years to help improve my scores and perhaps get a better interest rate on the mortgage.

I may also finance a cheap commuter car, but only if it makes solid financal sense (gas savings/monthly payment).

My point is, I guess, if you are going to file pro-se, you really need to look at all the risks involved, really be sure that you are not going to put anything on the line over the cost of paying an attorney. If you are at risk of losing anything above the attorneys fees ( lets say over 2000.00 as an example) pay for an attorney. It is worth it just not to sit and type the stuff on to the petitions and then recheck and recheck and recheck and then research some more, and them worry.

You have one mis-step like a preferential payment or forget a creditor, or forget to exempt an asset, you could be spending well over the 2000.00 just to defend or buy back something you actually already own.


In my case it was doable, and I had very little at risk, so it worked out for me, but money spent on a good BK attorney is a very wise investment!

DD

[justbroke]

As for helping pro se or not, I have well over 8,500 posts on this forum, hell, I bet if you put them all together, they would be more comprehensive than the Nolo Book Those 8,500 + posts are here to help everyone, including pro se filers. Bottom line, most pro se filers file pro se for the wrong reason, IMHO

Definitely better than the NoLo Book!

[HHM]

Well, you're obviously anti-lawyer beyond the scope of simply BK and a bit on the conspiracy theory side of the spectrum, so debating those issues is pointless. I am not anti pro se or pro lawyer, but I am pro "using good judgment" and "making informed decisions", and against making "snap judgments"

I was recently talking with a BK lawyer friend of mine, a prospect came to his office for a consult. The guy already filed a chapter 7 pro se, but was facing an Adversarial Proceeding by one of his creditors. The guy did a cash advance from a credit card in Feb 2008, used the money to pay back his mother, and 2 weeks later filed Chapter 7 Bk. His first attempt at filing BK was dismissed because he didn't get all his paperwork filed in time. He filed again in a few weeks. The BK Trustee went after his mother for the $4,000 (preferential transfer), so the debtor agreed to pay that. Now, the creditor is filing adversarial proceeding against the debtor disputing discharge of the debt (the $4,000 cash advance) because the cash advance was done within 70 days of filing BK. And the debtor is going to lose that AP 9 ways to Sunday. The guy apparently wasn't some dumb hick, he was normal, smart, but thought he could "handle it" on his own and save the attorney fee. Guess what, his BK is going to cost him $8,000 (the $4,000 that was the preferential transfer to his mother, and the $4,000 fraudulent use of credit). If he would have hired an attorney, even a cheap attorney for $1,500, none of that would have happened.

And when it comes to these types of stories, it is more common than you think. It really isn't the straight forward chapter 7's that are being filed pro se, those cases tend to go to attorneys because the people filing them are not educated enough to file the case on their own, or are not comfortable doing so. Pro Se filers tend to be better educated, arrogant (not necessarily in a negative sense, no offense justbroke ), and a little more well off, so their chapter 7's are rarely straight forward and simple. My concern is that many pro se filers get sticker shock at attorney cost, and never really sit down and figure out how they will come up with the money (not everyone, mind you). It is that lack of commitment and foresight that causes their cases, when filed pro se, to usually go sideways. Most people have time to put fees together and can figure out how to come up with $2,000 (for most filers, simply stopping paying credit cards can come up with the fees in 3 months). The truly poor don't need to file BK because they can't get credit anyway. It is the middle class that files BK, and for the most part, when push come to shove, they can come up with $2,000, but they let mental and emotional barriers prevent them from taking action.

As for helping pro se or not, I have well over 8,500 posts on this forum, hell, I bet if you put them all together, they would be more comprehensive than the Nolo Book Those 8,500 + posts are here to help everyone, including pro se filers. Bottom line, most pro se filers file pro se for the wrong reason, IMHO

[justbroke]

Are you telling me that BK judges, and BK lawyers, don't have a common interest? That's not the way I see it. The powerful always look out for each other....and they don't want to lose business. A judge is another lawyer, after all. From what I've read, you haven't been back and forth, or pro competition, about anything. You've always been pro lawyer, and anti pro se, every time I've read your replies on this topic. But maybe I missed something, so I'll keep reading. You mind if I ask...have you ever been a BK lawyer, yourself? Even when I come into what's suppose to be, a pro se section of the forum, it seems people are usually more discouraged, than encouraged, to do it.

I'm not answering for HHM. I'm answering for pro se filers.

Bankruptcy Judges are just impartial referees of something that is really the U.S. Trustee's process. While BK Judges have judicial power (and the power of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court behind them), I never saw them (BK Judges) as looking out for anyone but the law itself. If the BK Judges were pro-lawyers, then they'd have a tough time choosing sides in court. Now if you asked about the Trustee, I would agree that they "may" be advocates. I wouldn't blame the BK Court on the no paralegals practicing law rules. This is standard in all courts.

I do know this as well. They recently had "new" local rules and Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedures up for approval, and it was open to everyone to write an opinion. Yes, everyone. That speaks volumes to the Court's view of participation of how the rules are set.

As for filing pro se, I will always caution certain people after I read what they have posted and assessed what type of case they are (asset/no-asset). I will continue to caution pro se filers in asset cases because that's where you can actually lose property.

I asked for this section of the forum to be created so that pro se filers could ask questions outside the general forum areas. So, posts here will be looked at in much more detail by people familiar with pro se filings. I will be the first to admit that I have seen several forum members post in this section (and throughout the site) that should not file pro se because they were totally lost and/or had really complex tax and property issues.

I hope you stay. This really is the best Bankruptcy Forum bar none.

[TheAbyss]

LOL, just because you can't afford a lawyer (or aren't willing to figure out how to afford a lawyer), doesn't mean they are "overpriced". Are Doctor's overpriced douchbags? Are tile setters overpriced, are drywall guys overpriced.

I don't have to tile floors, and have drywall put up, If I don't have the money. I DON'T HAVE to do it. But I HAVE to file Bankruptcy. I have Health insurance, so medical care affordability isn't an issue either. I rarely go to see doctors, anyway. $1,500.00-$2,500.00 is a ridiculously high fee, for giving advice on what to claim, or put on paperwork, and then filing it. If the lawyer were able to speak for me at the 341, then it would be worth it. But then the the douche would probably raise the fee even higher.

I go back and forth on this issue with doc prep para legals. In principal, I belevie competition is good. However, these new regulations about para legal doc prep came more from the BK judges, not the BK Attorneys, as more of a consumer protection issue.

Are you telling me that BK judges, and BK lawyers, don't have a common interest? That's not the way I see it. The powerful always look out for each other....and they don't want to lose business. A judge is another lawyer, after all. From what I've read, you haven't been back and forth, or pro competition, about anything. You've always been pro lawyer, and anti pro se, every time I've read your replies on this topic. But maybe I missed something, so I'll keep reading. You mind if I ask...have you ever been a BK lawyer, yourself? Even when I come into what's suppose to be, a pro se section of the forum, it seems people are usually more discouraged, than encouraged, to do it.

Before 2005, these services marketing was borderline because they were leading consumers to beleive they were getting "almost" the same level of service as an attorney, which was not the case. Also, frankly, most of these doc prep services do a crap job, or more accurately, it's not that they do a bad job, but the info they put on the forms is only as good as the info the debtor provides, and without legal guidance to understand the questions on SOFA (Statement of Financial Affairs), or understand what is an acceptable budget, these petitions that get prepared are very risky for the debtor.

I'm talking more about local, experienced, and competent paralegals. Not online preparers that use some type of fallible software. Are you telling me that an experienced paralegal wouldn't be capable of knowing the probabilities in a chapter 7 case, and be capable of given good advice? I think they would.... If they weren't so busy cowering under their desks for fear of what the BK judges, Lawyers, and the law, would do to them. The fact that it's not easy to find any local Paralegals preparers with a simple google search, speaks volumes. Y'all intimidated them, obviously.

As bad as the law is, preventing ALL Paralegals from giving any advice, I'm stuck with it. Nothing that I say on an internet forum, is gonna change it. But my reasons for being frustrated are legitimate. I can go on, and on, about this topic. But I'm going to end this exchange, before it gets heated. So you'll get to swoop in, and have the last word. I probably won't agree with some of your replies, but don't take my silence, as a concession. I want to continue having access to this forum, and don't want to risk getting banned. At least until my BK is settled.

[HHM]

I guess what you're saying is that I have to find one to help me, secretly? It SHOULDN'T be Illegal for an experienced Paralegal to offer advice, and to help people file bankruptcy. On a buyer beware basis. Lawyers are a bunch of overpriced douchbags. They've lobbied to do everything possible, to squash competition, and prevent people from seeking alternatives. Just ranting out of frustration, here...

LOL, just because you can't afford a lawyer (or aren't willing to figure out how to afford a lawyer), doesn't mean they are "overpriced". Are Doctor's overpriced douchbags? Are tile setters overpriced, are drywall guys overpriced.

I go back and forth on this issue with doc prep para legals. In principal, I belevie competition is good. However, these new regulations about para legal doc prep came more from the BK judges, not the BK Attorneys, as more of a consumer protection issue. Before 2005, these services marketing was borderline because they were leading consumers to beleive they were getting "almost" the same level of service as an attorney, which was not the case. Also, frankly, most of these doc prep services do a crap job, or more accurately, it's not that they do a bad job, but the info they put on the forms is only as good as the info the debtor provides, and without legal guidance to understand the questions on SOFA (Statement of Financial Affairs), or understand what is an acceptable budget, these petitions that get prepared are very risky for the debtor.

[TheAbyss]

I'm not sure many advertise. The real problem in this area, of non-attorneys preparing petitions, is any appearance that the non-attorney counseled or otherwise instructed the Debtor what to put on the paper.

A paralegal can't even, technically, provide a "checklist" or summary sheet for a debtor to complete! The Paralegal can only hand the debtor the requisite (official) forms!

Imagine handing a B22A/B22C to an average debtor and say complete this? Imagine not being to answer the question as to whether they should include the car or not? Trustees have been looking into this non-attorney assistance and have brought the full power of the court upon those who continue to do it. I think there are few (paralegals) who will do this outside an attorney's practice (as the attorney's clerk/assistant).

I guess what you're saying is that I have to find one to help me, secretly? It SHOULDN'T be Illegal for an experienced Paralegal to offer advice, and to help people file bankruptcy. On a buyer beware basis. Lawyers are a bunch of overpriced douchbags. They've lobbied to do everything possible, to squash competition, and prevent people from seeking alternatives. Just ranting out of frustration, here...

[justbroke]

What's the best way to search for one online? I just tried several google searches, for Paralegal services in my state, with bad results. What are good keywords to use?

I'm not sure many advertise. The real problem in this area, of non-attorneys preparing petitions, is any appearance that the non-attorney counseled or otherwise instructed the Debtor what to put on the paper.

A paralegal can't even, technically, provide a "checklist" or summary sheet for a debtor to complete! The Paralegal can only hand the debtor the requisite (official) forms!

Imagine handing a B22A/B22C to an average debtor and say complete this? Imagine not being to answer the question as to whether they should include the car or not? Trustees have been looking into this non-attorney assistance and have brought the full power of the court upon those who continue to do it. I think there are few (paralegals) who will do this outside an attorney's practice (as the attorney's clerk/assistant).

[TheAbyss]

You are better off finding a local Paralegal who does bankruptcy prep work.

What's the best way to search for one online? I just tried several google searches, for Paralegal services in my state, with bad results. What are good keywords to use?

[runforcover]

Thanx DD

I have been asking and getting great answers. I think the mods soon will have their hands full. If cap and trade becomes law, there may be a whole lot more personal and business bankruptcies. That is, when ALL energy costs double almost overnight.
I still have more to learn and I will keep reading. Thanx for your reasoning and observations.

[dingdong]

Besides, even though I have not, as of yet, figured out how to start a thread on this site.

Don't feel bad, I just caught on to the "Subscrbe" function and I have been posting here for 6 months. Ya gotta start somewhere in the forum world.

Don't take any mod edits as personal attacks, they are just doing their jobs, I goofed many times with posting issues when I first started using forums too, the mods will just tell you about the rules and then move on. They kind of have to be succint or they would be spending half their lives writing lengthy posts about forum rules.

Welcome and ask any questions you need to, the people here are very helpful.

DD