Meeting did not go well!

[derp]

I don't understand what happened.

Before I filed, my attorney had me as a Chapter 13, with $1,200 a month in disposable income after the 6 month look back. This was because of an annual RONA bonus that I just had received before I filed. He took that out, which dropped me down to $700 a month, then took out some payroll deductions, which brought me down to $500 a month in disposable income. Then he added my girlfriend's income/expenses (we live together), and changed me to a 2 person household, and this, in his opinion, dropped me down to a Chapter 7. My girlfriend's income is so small, due to her own credit card debt, and 401k contributions (she borrowed against it twice to pay down her credit cards), that I end up paying for all the utilities, household items, pet food, car repairs, and the majority of our groceries. She also still owes the hospital $1,000.

My meeting was this morning. Everything seemed fine, until the trustee noticed that my income tax was higher than 30% of my shown income. The math war going back and forth between the two of them put me in a daze. All I can remember was her saying that it looks like my income is about $1,000 a month more than the amount shown on the schedule, that I might have to convert to a 13 (which I possibly only imagined her saying... or not) , and that my attorney needs to make amendments within the next five days.

My attorney shook my hand, and told me that he would call me.

I'm not sure how worried I should be.

[tobee43]

i'm sure they will work it out. i know something similar happened during our 341 and the trustee told my atty i will discuss this with you at lunch. (ok so it's nice they knew each well enough to break bread). anyway, it was all worked out.

some of this back and fro may go on for a bit, but i'm certain it will be explained away and your atty will "fix" it. it sounds like the worse would be a 13 which on this forum there are many that have been very successful working with 13's and believe me are still standing.

[justbroke]

There are constant battles over income, and with our situation (a significant other but unmarried) presents unique opportunities for the Trustee to poke at your case. Especially since your annual tax "refunds" may actually just shield extra income. This is normal. Most attorneys -- that I know -- will take the average annual tax refund, divide it by 12, and then add it to the monthly income. This is to make certain that you fit within the rules for a Chapter 7 (with DMI < about $200/month).

No sense to worry as... it is what it is at this point. Your attorney will look at the numbers again and update the schedules. Hopefully, your refunds are already addressed and any change doesn't bump your DMI upwards.

[derp]

So my attorney asked again for my girlfriend's average income. After applying her income/expenses to mine, he determined that I still have a DMI of $603, which would put me in a Chapter 13. This, based off of an average, 80 hour pay stub. He sent me my schedules I and J, and asked me if I could think of any other expenses we might have.

Right away I noticed that under my payroll deductions, my 401k contribution, or at least what I believe that is, was missing. It's listed as "savings plan". That's $160 per month.

Then I noticed that my utility expenses were totally out of whack. He was still using the numbers I gave him when he was retained over two years ago, and I was only including half the household expenses on those. That's another $300 per month.

I threw in that my auto insurance went up, and that our mortgage payment is going up slightly. I also included the expense of the three cats that we've adopted since then, and used some ASPCA statistics to come out with an average monthly expense for them. This combined was another $150.

These updates should get me into negative numbers, and that's not even touching on the $1,000 my girlfriend owes the hospital, or repairs we still need to make to our house (finishing a bathroom, replacing half the ceiling in our living room, a water damaged ceiling on our master bedroom), or asking him to adjust the unrealistic amount of $120 he has down for recreation.

I should have caught these numbers when I was signing all the paperwork. I mentioned to him that if he's combining our income/expenses, the utility bills would have at minimum doubled over the numbers I gave him before, and that I could give those numbers to him myself, but he told me that there were federal allowances, so my own numbers were irrelevant. So I imagined he was in fact using those those federal allowances. And I'm talking $0 for phone (I was on my girlfriends parents family plan at the time), and $65 for electricity and heating a house. He was using staggeringly low numbers.

So I sent him this, yesterday at noon, and I haven't heard back from him. I called his number, but his assistant answered and told me that he hadn't gotten to my email yet, and to call her friday if I haven't heard from them by then. He was even late to the 341.

I don't view any of this as professional. I gave him my girlfriend's information before I filed, and he already asked me about the "savings plan" line on my pay stubs before he originally knocked me down to a Chapter 7.

[tobee43]

i'm so sorry this happened. unfortunately, it's not unusal at all. actually, i had to review our petition 5 times before signing it...they had used a house we owned over 30 years ago as the one we were surrending!!! i mean it was unreal. and this was an excellent firm, just their "girls" or so called paralegals didn't have a clue.

unfortunately, you have to check everything and anything before you sign. although, this sounds like it's fixable and it will be ok.

[justbroke]

Just make sure you go in and sit down with the attorney and go through the numbers on Schedule I/J and on Form B22C (Means Test). The girlfriend's income should not be simply "added" to yours. It should offset your expenses. So if she contributes $200/month towards your household expenses, then that amount gets added on B22C Line 7 (amount paid by another person). I think it's an important distinction than having just taking your GF's income (let's say $1,200/month) and just adding it into Line 7. It should be only the contribution. As for pet expenses, those are going to be TOUGH to get by a Trustee unless the Trustee is feeling "charitable".

At least, that's how the Chapter 13 Means Test is done here in Florida.

It reads as though you and your attorney really need to sit down and chat. Unfortunately, you "reviewed" the numbers earlier and signed the petition. Perhaps there was and still is a communication problem, but you really need to take charge and address it quickly. Do not end up in an infeasible Chapter 13!

[tobee43]

good point jb, as by number 4 rejected petition from their office i demanded (nicely) a sit down with the atty and ask what the heck??? everything was straighten out by #5. we were not a chapter 13, but with some of the incorrect figures that were going to be provided it could have put us into 13 actually on a temp basis since some of our income was going to stop( EI). we would have had to refile to convert to a 7 if it was not done properly.

[derp]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't have the means test in front of me. On the schedule he just has "Support for girlfriend" under Other Expenditures. He's doing it as though she pays the entire mortgage (it's in her name), and I'm the one contributing to her expenses.

I asked his paralegal about the pet expense, and she said it would be okay to add it.

I accepted the possibility of a chapter 13 a long time ago. He's the one who keeps pushing me for a chapter 7, and had me convinced that I was eligible.

[tobee43]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't have the means test in front of me. On the schedule he just has "Support for girlfriend" under Other Expenditures. He's doing it as though she pays the entire mortgage (it's in her name), and I'm the one contributing to her expenses.

I asked his paralegal about the pet expense, and she said it would be okay to add it.

I accepted the possibility of a chapter 13 a long time ago. He's the one who keeps pushing me for a chapter 7, and had me convinced that I was eligible.

there have been numerous successsful 13'a on this forum. so it may be the best format for your situation. it just wasn't for us as we are the "lost" working generation...the one with the top and mid managment jobs laid off have 20 plus years and you know the whole sad stories one hears time and time again. we are now unemployable, too educated, too skilled, but not skilled enough to be a walmart greeter

if the firm feels you qualify for a 7....ask why? make certain you fully understand the reasoning, feel comfortable with it. i would ask for another meeting at this point.

[justbroke]

I don't have the means test in front of me. On the schedule he just has "Support for girlfriend" under Other Expenditures. He's doing it as though she pays the entire mortgage (it's in her name), and I'm the one contributing to her expenses.

Not to scare you, but some of the Trustees and Judges here in Florida would not like to see "support [u]for[/uu] girlfriend" on a petition. In fact, one judge opined that a "personal lifestyle choice" (not getting married) should not supplant the monies due the unsecured creditors. I would think the attorney would have listed the expenses the other way... having listed "support FROM girlfriend" instead and that amount being the offset. I suppose it's difficult since you have no legal obligation for the mortgage, but you are paying it.

I'm not trying to scare you, I just find it interesting! (You should not be scared. Your attorney is familiar with your local District, rules, customs, Trustees and Judges.) I had a similar issue and married my "girlfriend" before confirmation of my plan for similar reasons. But hey, this is Florida and this State does not recognize common-law marriage.

Always add expenses and then force the Trustee to shoot them down or have them removed/modified. I guess it's better to load your expenses with actual expenses and then "negotiate" with the Trustee over which ones are allowed/allowable.

[derp]

The OCD is in full swing! I've been doing a Pacer query search just about once an hour the last few days.

My attorney filed the amendment last Friday, and there hasn't been an update since. I'm still "awaiting first meeting". Is it normal for a trustee to sit on things like this for a while, or is she going to rip me apart?

The attorney changed my expenses to something closer to reality. My utilities are now accurate, he lowered my food expense from what he had before, chopped my proposed pet budget in half, added my 401k contribution back in, refused to add charitable contributions and birthday/celebration expenses, and told me I was pushing it with a $120 a month recreation expense. The changes brought me down to under $10 DMI, and he told me he "thinks" I should be fine.

[justbroke]

With $10 DMI that sounds awesome! Are you still going for Chapter 7?

Oh, please stay out of PACER!

[karm43]

What district are you in?

[karm43]

I am waiting on my 4th confirmation hearing and it was almost 3 months from last one. It may be awhile. I know everybody says if your over medium you could still get a chap7, but im guessing not without a fight.

[derp]

I'm in the Eastern district.

Three months, huh? That's horrible. The waiting is probably the worst part.