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% Payback (it doesn't matter)

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  • #31
    OK so I dont mean to drive you crazy but after sleeping on it ... If you pay 350 a mth lets just say for hypothetical purposes for 10 mths which is $3500 would it be that everyone gets 10% and that would not be paid to them until the end of the plan ???
    So credit card #3 would get $70 ?????
    Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones
    Chapter 13 filed 10-21-09
    Discharged 4-13-15

    Comment


    • #32
      Means test

      I went to see the 5th lawyer today. They all have different payplans based on the means test. He came up with 4000 dispos income..He was crazy. The question I have is why do I have to pay back the 2nd on the renter house when I'm surrendering it?
      Also, our take home is not enough to pay bills and make a 3100 payment. The means test is not fare for above income.
      Take home is 6700
      actual bills 5700


      income wife & I 148000 yr
      unsecured debt 150000
      means test come back. paying 3100

      Thanks
      The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by bklawn View Post
        The question I have is why do I have to pay back the 2nd on the renter house when I'm surrendering it?
        Because it will become unsecured or the 2nd will file a "deficiency" claim and be unsecured anyhow.

        Originally posted by bklawn View Post
        Also, our take home is not enough to pay bills and make a 3100 payment. The means test is not fare for above income.
        Huh? It is fair. What are your expenses? You are probably entering something wrong. Did you account for payroll taxes? Did you account for housing costs for your locality? How many household members are there?

        Just because your "actual" bills are $5,700 doesn't mean that they are allowed. For example, credit card payments go away. You will have to fix a particular amount for food, clothing, non-rent/non-mortgage expenses, car payments, etc.
        Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
        Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
        Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


        I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by justbroke View Post
          Because it will become unsecured or the 2nd will file a "deficiency" claim and be unsecured anyhow.

          Huh? It is fair. What are your expenses? You are probably entering something wrong. Did you account for payroll taxes? Did you account for housing costs for your locality? How many household members are there?

          Just because your "actual" bills are $5,700 doesn't mean that they are allowed. For example, credit card payments go away. You will have to fix a particular amount for food, clothing, non-rent/non-mortgage expenses, car payments, etc.


          Justbroke, I have a question and would like to know what you think.

          1.. planning on filing Jan instead of Oct. due to the decrease in income from $8600 to about $6500 for six months income. sch j would be around gross $6200 net $4000
          wife gross $4018 net $2800 so total income $10200 or $11000.. for means test

          My wife & I make $148000 a year 2008, 2009, but next year would be around $135000..
          oct filing would be $12600.. if I file Jan 10500 because of no more over time and bonuses..


          2. I have primary house 1st $2018 2nd $724
          bal $368000 Value is $280000

          3. rental house that I will let go 1st $131000 2nd $38000 house value is $97000

          4. property which is rental and also my wife mothers house bal $36000 $314payment
          value $32000 we are keeping that even if everything goes.. not this...

          5. cars honda accord $1500 value own
          gmac $14000 value own
          camry will pay in plan bal$28000 valve $19000 payment $605
          chev truck $5000 value own
          These are all off the assets we have, but no equity in anything except cars,

          We are planning on filing chapter 13.. I came up with a payment of around $800 plus I guess the secured car payment and fees.. Could the trustee make me pay more based on the assets we have,, which I think is small.. so 800 x 60 $48000 plus fees and car payment right..Thanks
          The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

          Comment


          • #35
            HHM, I would like to know what you think. ?Thanks,,

            1.. planning on filing Jan instead of Oct. due to the decrease in income from $8600 to about $6500 for six months income. sch j would be around gross $6200 net $4000
            wife gross $4018 net $2800 so total income $10200 or $11000.. for means test

            My wife & I make $148000 a year 2008, 2009, but next year would be around $135000..
            oct filing would be $12600.. if I file Jan 10500 because of no more over time and bonuses..


            2. I have primary house 1st $2018 2nd $724
            bal $368000 Value is $280000

            3. rental house that I will let go 1st $131000 2nd $38000 house value is $97000

            4. property which is rental and also my wife mothers house bal $36000 $314payment
            value $32000 we are keeping that even if everything goes.. not this...

            5. cars honda accord $1500 value own
            gmac $14000 value own
            camry will pay in plan bal$28000 valve $19000 payment $605
            chev truck $5000 value own
            These are all off the assets we have, but no equity in anything except cars,

            We are planning on filing chapter 13.. I came up with a payment of around $800 plus I guess the secured car payment and fees.. Could the trustee make me pay more based on the assets we have,, which I think is small.. so 800 x 60 $48000 plus fees and car payment right..Thanks
            The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by bklawn View Post
              We are planning on filing chapter 13.. I came up with a payment of around $800 plus I guess the secured car payment and fees.. Could the trustee make me pay more based on the assets we have,, which I think is small.. so 800 x 60 $48000 plus fees and car payment right..Thanks
              Overall looks good to me. Looks like you may have to pay the "non-exempt" value of those cars into the Plan. If you're in Florida, and filing together, you'll only get $2K exemption for the cars. That's like $18K exposed (about $20K in equity less the $2K exemption). Remember, I'm talking Florida.

              That means $20,000 / 60 or about an additional $333/month you'd have to pay into the plan. If you say your payment is about $800, it would now be $1,333/month.

              You might also have trouble with the rental you're keeping. The Trustee may require you to pay that value to the Plan as well. Since you'd need an appraisal, we'll just say it's $30K. So you'd need an additional $500/month in your payment. You're now at $1,833/month.

              You might consider paying off Mom's (rental) home during the life of the plan and cramdown the value and the interest rate since it's not your primary residence.

              In the end, I think your problem is going to be keeping all those assets, without contributing (more) to the Plan.
              Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
              Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
              Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


              I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                Overall looks good to me. Looks like you may have to pay the "non-exempt" value of those cars into the Plan. If you're in Florida, and filing together, you'll only get $2K exemption for the cars. That's like $18K exposed (about $20K in equity less the $2K exemption). Remember, I'm talking Florida.

                That means $20,000 / 60 or about an additional $333/month you'd have to pay into the plan. If you say your payment is about $800, it would now be $1,333/month.

                You might also have trouble with the rental you're keeping. The Trustee may require you to pay that value to the Plan as well. Since you'd need an appraisal, we'll just say it's $30K. So you'd need an additional $500/month in your payment. You're now at $1,833/month.

                You might consider paying off Mom's (rental) home during the life of the plan and cramdown the value and the interest rate since it's not your primary residence.

                In the end, I think your problem is going to be keeping all those assets, without contributing (more) to the Plan.
                Even if they have no equity? Yes I am in Georgia I think exempts are 20000 for couples.. They can wont that property it is less then what the balance is and we are current on it with gmac which has the loan.. it would be hard to get anything for it now.. The other renter can go that is the problem trying to keep it flowing and making payments on it off and on.
                The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by bklawn View Post
                  Even if they have no equity?
                  If you're talking about the non-homestead home (the rental that Mom's living in), the answer is yes. Here's why. You're paying the value of the home down over the 5 years. The assumption is that you are gaining equity. That money should have gone to the creditors. You'd be benefiting from the equity gained over the 5 years of payments. That's why the Trustee may want the value paid back in the plan! (They did this to me when I was keeping my $200K rental property. This would have put me in a 60% plan when I'm in a 0% plan. No way was I going to do that!)

                  Originally posted by bklawn View Post
                  Yes I am in Georgia I think exempts are 20000 for couples.. They can wont that property it is less then what the balance is and we are current on it with gmac which has the loan.
                  I'm talking about the rental. You cannot apply the entire "homestead" exemption to the Rental. The "unused" homestead exemption can be used as a wildcard, but it is reduced to $5,000 (OCGS 44-13-100(a)(6)). I don't think you can double this.

                  Also, the motor vehicle allowance is a total of $3,500 in all vehicles (OCGS 44-13-100(a)(3)). I don't think you can double this.

                  Again, you are going to be paying back a lot of equity into the Plan on the rental and the cars.
                  Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                  Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                  Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


                  I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                    If you're talking about the non-homestead home (the rental that Mom's living in), the answer is yes. Here's why. You're paying the value of the home down over the 5 years. The assumption is that you are gaining equity. That money should have gone to the creditors. You'd be benefiting from the equity gained over the 5 years of payments. That's why the Trustee may want the value paid back in the plan! (They did this to me when I was keeping my $200K rental property. This would have put me in a 60% plan when I'm in a 0% plan. No way was I going to do that!)

                    I'm talking about the rental. You cannot apply the entire "homestead" exemption to the Rental. The "unused" homestead exemption can be used as a wildcard, but it is reduced to $5,000 (OCGS 44-13-100(a)(6)). I don't think you can double this.

                    Also, the motor vehicle allowance is a total of $3,500 in all vehicles (OCGS 44-13-100(a)(3)). I don't think you can double this.

                    Again, you are going to be paying back a lot of equity into the Plan on the rental and the cars.


                    ok thanks,, I will see.. you cant win for losing.. so I'm looking at 1800 to 2000 plus fees.. for 5 years just to keep assets that are under water now.. makes good sense.. even though DMI say $800.. Looks like failure before you start..

                    Thanks just broke.. I will let you know how it turns out once I file..Dont pay to make good money.. This will never happen again for me. getting too old for this..bad timing kid will be going to college next year..
                    The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by HHM View Post
                      Ok...many people are getting hung up on the percent payoff in a chapter 13, meaning the percent that is being paid to unsecured creditors.

                      Let me say this crystal clear....

                      The % you pay to your unsecured creditors DOES NOT MATTER.

                      There is no minimum and it isn't even a factor of your plan. The % payback is a flexible number, it is merely informative. There is not even a reference in the BK code to the % payback. The ONLY numbers that matter in a chapter 13 plan are...
                      1. Net Disposable income (on the means test, referred to as Disposible Monthly Income, DMI).
                      2. Liquidation value of your BK estate.

                      Your net disposable income (NDI) is simply your Gross Income minus your allowed expenses. That is how your plan payment is calculated. If your NDI is $100, then you are paying back $6,000 over 60 months, if your NDI is $1000, you are paying back $60,000 over 60 months. What ever percent payback that equals is what it is; but the % pay back is merely "informative", but has NO legal significance. For example, if you are paying back $100 per month, but you get a $1,000 tax refund, that will necessarily change your % payback.

                      Liquidation value is simply the value of your non-exempt assets, if any. In a chapter 13, you are required to at least pay the value of non-exempt assets. In many cases, the liquidation value is 0; so your chapter 13 plan payment is simply based off of your NDI. However, if your liquidation value is $50,000, then your chapter 13 plan must "at least" pay back $50,000 over the course of 60 months. Caveat, your plan payment is still going to be based on your NDI so if your NDI would exceed that $50K, you will be paying back the larger amount, where people run into trouble with liquidation value is if they don't have enough NDI to cover the non-exempt equity, in which case, your chapter 13 would be dismissed.

                      Bottom line, your % payback to unsecured creditors has absolutely, positively, NO legal significance. It is merely an informational number subject to change based on your true NDI over the course of the plan and the creditors that actually file claims.



                      Does the (NDI) pay for a cram down car loan? What I'm saying is say you have a NDI of $1000.. Do the trustee take the secured cram down car payment out of it or is it added to the $1000 to make your payment be say $1350 plus atty and trustee fees?
                      The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                        Overall looks good to me. Looks like you may have to pay the "non-exempt" value of those cars into the Plan. If you're in Florida, and filing together, you'll only get $2K exemption for the cars. That's like $18K exposed (about $20K in equity less the $2K exemption). Remember, I'm talking Florida.

                        That means $20,000 / 60 or about an additional $333/month you'd have to pay into the plan. If you say your payment is about $800, it would now be $1,333/month.

                        You might also have trouble with the rental you're keeping. The Trustee may require you to pay that value to the Plan as well. Since you'd need an appraisal, we'll just say it's $30K. So you'd need an additional $500/month in your payment. You're now at $1,833/month.

                        You might consider paying off Mom's (rental) home during the life of the plan and cramdown the value and the interest rate since it's not your primary residence.

                        In the end, I think your problem is going to be keeping all those assets, without contributing (more) to the Plan.
                        Just notice this statement above.. You can't cram down a house payment in a chapter 13 right? also that property value is less than the balance, which is with GMAC.. The payments are on time.. There is no equity in the property... So how can the trustee make me pay more if the creditors will not get anything out of it if I gave it up. GMAC will be the first. They have the loan.

                        As for keeping the assets, I have no equity in anything except about 14000 in the cars, which equal to $233 over 5 years.. Even if I could do a chapter 7.. the creditors could not get anything except the $14000. I think they have no argument.. They get more with me just paying $1000 over 5 years.

                        Thanks
                        O and I'm in Georgia..
                        Last edited by bklawn; 09-17-2009, 03:49 PM.
                        The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bklawn View Post
                          Does the (NDI) pay for a cram down car loan? What I'm saying is say you have a NDI of $1000.. Do the trustee take the secured cram down car payment out of it or is it added to the $1000 to make your payment be say $1350 plus atty and trustee fees?
                          When you cram down, you no longer have the associated "car payment" that you were making. In a cram down scenario, a good attorney will eat up the amount in other expenes (if possible), but yes, the NDI covers the cram down, but realize, the car payment you "were" making (prior to the 13) is usually added to the NDI.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by hhm View Post
                            when you cram down, you no longer have the associated "car payment" that you were making. In a cram down scenario, a good attorney will eat up the amount in other expenes (if possible), but yes, the ndi covers the cram down, but realize, the car payment you "were" making (prior to the 13) is usually added to the ndi.
                            thanks hhm
                            The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by HHM View Post
                              When you cram down, you no longer have the associated "car payment" that you were making. In a cram down scenario, a good attorney will eat up the amount in other expenes (if possible), but yes, the NDI covers the cram down, but realize, the car payment you "were" making (prior to the 13) is usually added to the NDI.
                              Ok Maybe you did not understand what I was saying..

                              1. 2063 NDI
                              2. amount of car in cram down $21919 which is $365 for 60 months
                              3. attorney fee $4000 which is $67
                              4. plus trustee fee..

                              So if you add up the amounts above is the car payment part of the $2063 which is including in the plan or is it added to the $2063.. I know the trustee fee is added back because it is part of your deductions.. number 50 of your
                              B22c form... of a Chapter 13..

                              Reading the law it states basically that what ever the NDI amount is, everything is paid out of that even, the non exempt amounts if any. Like the forum says if all of those amounts are more than you NDI then your plan will not pass and be discharged is that correct.
                              The information provided is not and should not be considered legal advice or establish an attorney/client relationship.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bklawn View Post
                                ust notice this statement above.. You can't cram down a house payment in a chapter 13 right? also that property value is less than the balance, which is with GMAC.. The payments are on time.. There is no equity in the property... So how can the trustee make me pay more if the creditors will not get anything out of it if I gave it up. GMAC will be the first. They have the loan.
                                I thought I responded to this, but I was having trouble with the site on that day.

                                Anyhow, it has nothing to do with the equity right now. In a Chapter 13, you are paying things over a period of time. So, you are diverting money to a non-homestead (primary residence) to pay for an investment.

                                It's not an equity question in the present tense. You are still keeping a property that has a particular value... whether it's encumbered or not. You are paying that property while the unsecured creditors are penalized while you enjoy actually paying down the property (gaining equity) and any other equity gained by appreciation over that period.

                                If you are able to have a plan confirmed, where you're paying 0% to the unsecured creditors, while you're keeping an investment property and paying it down... let us know. This will be the first reference case for me to use as caselaw. I just haven't seen it. it makes no sense, and there is nowhere provided for it in the code.

                                Originally posted by bklawn View Post
                                Reading the law it states basically that what ever the NDI amount is, everything is paid out of that even, the non exempt amounts if any. Like the forum says if all of those amounts are more than you NDI then your plan will not pass and be discharged is that correct.
                                Huh? If you're referring to how the plan works in 11 USC 1325, then I don't think you understand it correctly. The disposable monthly income (DMI) is calculated based on, first, your current monthly income (CMI). From your CMI, allowable expenses are deducted, these are known as the IRS Allowed Expenses (Allowances). After your allowances, you then deduct your Additional Expenses (Additional). After that, your Debt payment is figured (Debt Service). Your debt service is then also deducted from your CMI. What is left over, is known as the Disposable Monthly Income (DMI).

                                The Debt Service amount includes payments on secured debt including arrears. It also includes the Trustee payment as well.

                                The DMI is the DMI and nothing else. The entire purpose of the DMI, is to be submitted to the custody and control of the Trustee... and paid to the unsecured creditors.

                                I don't understand the misunderstanding. If you cramdown a car, it will likely NOT change your DMI. Here's why. Suppose you're paying $450/month for your car and the balance due is $21K. Let's say the cramdown value of the car is $12K and your plan is 60 months. Your payment, in Plan, will be $200/month. While y ou may think that the difference ($450-200 = $250) would go to the DMI, it does not.

                                This is because the "Allowance" -- as I talked about above -- include a $489/month car ownership allowance. You get to take $489 less the car payment. So, earlier, your allowance would have been $39.00 ($489-$450). Since you cram the car down, your allowance increases to $289 ($489-$200). This is counterbalanced in your debt service, because the payment on the car would decrease by the same amount. This would NOT change your DMI at all.

                                The only case in which your DMI might change, is if the car payment was more than $489 to start with.

                                I know that's pretty detailed, but I think it deserved a deeper explanation.
                                Last edited by justbroke; 09-19-2009, 02:27 PM.
                                Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                                Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                                Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


                                I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

                                Comment

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