Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as BKForum.com and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do:
BKFORUM.com (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto BKForum.com you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.


Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of BKforum.com.

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on BKForum.com are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

1700 per month for family of 4

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 1700 per month for family of 4

    I'm looking for some straightforward and honest opinions for the many experienced individuals on this board.

    I am approx 10 months into making payments into a CH 13. My Plan has been confirmed since late November. Since I started making payments I took two pay cuts and also saw a substantial increase in heath insurance payments deducted from my check at the start of 2010. As all of this was occurring, the Trustee twice recommend increases to my plan prior to confirmation. Here is where things stand now:

    I am paid twice monthly.

    2810.00 per month is made towards the plan. This includes my mortgage payment of 1800.00.

    I take home a total of 1738.00 per month. My monthly fixed expenses are as follows:

    Car Payment - 432.00
    Car Insurance - 160.00
    Cell Phone/House Phone - 90
    Cable - 40
    Gas Bill - 140
    Electric Bill - 120
    Water Bill - 40
    Trash Removal - 30

    This leaves a remainder of 600 per month to cover all the other expenses such as groceries, gasoline, household items, clothing, school expenses, home and car maintenance, etc.

    Prior to the pay cuts and increase in health care premiums I suspect I would have had approximately 1000.00 remaining per month. I informed my Lawyer each time my pay had been impacted yet nothing has been done.

    The primary purpose of the CH 13 is to pay 16,000 in arrears on the mortgage of our primary residence and to keep the home. Everything else in the BK is unsecured. We are in a 42 month plan. At this rate we will pay 42,000 into the plan.

    Is it just me or is there considerable room for modification in my plan? What are my options if my Lawyer is unresponsive to my needs?

  • #2
    Originally posted by rdwng11 View Post
    Prior to the pay cuts and increase in health care premiums I suspect I would have had approximately 1000.00 remaining per month. I informed my Lawyer each time my pay had been impacted yet nothing has been done.

    ......

    Is it just me or is there considerable room for modification in my plan? What are my options if my Lawyer is unresponsive to my needs?
    Did you simply inform your lawyer of the pay cuts and increase in premiums or did you also say, "with the decrease in my disposible income, I don't think I can make the plan payments. I would like to discuss a modification of my plan"?

    Yes, when you told him your expenses have increased, your attorney should be proactive and review your file and suggest a modification if appropriate. But if he doesn't, you need to be assertive and direct to let him know what you think should done. If he doesn't agree a modification is appropriate, he should explain why. Follow up if you get no response.
    LadyInTheRed is in the black!
    Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
    $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!

    Comment


    • #3
      WOW, this is what scares me. We have yet to file-it will most likely be early summer. We are a family of 5. I spend at least $600.00 per month on groceries to feed my family. Gas is around $200.00. Electricity, trash pick-up, phone, clothing, school supplies. What about vehicle registrations, school lunch accounts, pet food for 2 large dogs. We'd never make it
      Retained atty 3/2010. Filed Chapter 13 on 1/2013.

      Comment


      • #4
        No need to be scared.

        You really need to push your attorney to modify your confirmed plan. For rdwng11, this is exactly why you need to be diligent. There is something really really wrong with your plan payment. I have a family of four and my food allowance alone is $1,370 per the IRS guidelines. I don't see how you're even living.

        Something is wrong, wrong, wrong. A Chapter 13 is not meant to be punitive. I would be in my attorney's office yesterday.
        Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
        Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
        Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


        I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Ok, that just made me feel 100% better! Thank you justbroke! I was thinking oh my gosh-there would be no way we could live!
          Retained atty 3/2010. Filed Chapter 13 on 1/2013.

          Comment


          • #6
            You mentioned $16,000 in mortgage arrears, and that your mortgage is included in the plan. The arrears averages to ~$381/mo as you said over 42 months. Depending on what your mortgage regular payment is, there may not be much room to change the payment.

            How much is your regular mortgage payment? If the $2810 is $381 to arrears and 10% (maybe less) to the trustee, $2148 remains for mortgage and anything else. If your mortgage is in the area of $2000-2100, then extending the plan to be 60 months will do very little to help. Perhaps free up about $100/mo? If you were paying the mortgage directly then the tt fee would be less and you'd have more flexibility in your payment.
            Get mortgage modified: DONE! 7 months of back interest payments amortized, payment reduced over $200/mo
            (In the 'planning' stage, to file ch. 13 if/when we have to.)

            Comment


            • #7
              The mort. payment is 1800 per mo. By my calculations there is room for at the least an addtl 400 - 500 per month to go toward my families expenses and 500 still toward the plan.

              If i continue with the plan as is I will have paid 42,000 to the plan in 42 mos.....but we will be dirt poor

              Comment


              • #8
                The real question isn't how much the mortgage payment is, at this point. Again, at this point, the question is, how much of that Trustee payment is "disposable monthly income" (DMI). Of course, what makes a Chapter 13 so complex is that the Plan must pay the Chapter 7 liquidation value as well. There are factors that can't be seen just by looking at the "payment" to the Chapter 13 Trustee.

                Suffice it to say that I think that the poster has a troubled and infeasible plan. I'm surprised that it wasn't disallowed for the mere fact that a family of 4 can't live on $600 a month. Okay, yes, there are families of 4 that live on less than $600/month, but they are entitled (can I use that word?) to assistance.
                Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog


                I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  All valid points - by asking about the mortgage amount I was trying to figure out the minimum that needs to be paid in to be a satisfactory plan. It must pay the arrears, ongoing mortgage payments, any other priority debts (taxes, atty, etc.) and cover the TT fee. And if there are non-exempt assets, the plan must pay enough to unsecured to cover the non-exempt amount.

                  For 42 months, the minimum (if the mortgage & arrears are the ONLY priority debts, no atty fees included in play payback):

                  $1800 Mortgage
                  $ 381 Arrears
                  $2181

                  If the TT's fee is 10%, that becomes $2423. Round up to $2500 to err on the safe side? (Not sure if the arrears gets interest, rounding up should cover it if so.) @rdwng11, do you have any attorney fees being paid in the plan, any taxes, or anything else 'priority'? Any non-exempt assets you are needing to cover?

                  Its @ $2810 now, so there appears to be some wiggle room for legitimate expenses to cut the plan payment down. Unless there are other priority debts. Even then, all but the mortgage could be spread out over 60 months instead of 42 if the issue is making sure enough gets paid in.

                  I can't help but question the ethics of including the mortgage payment in the plan. If a filer really has the DMI to pay the TT fee on that payment, wouldn't it be more fair for it to go to unsecured creditors instead of the TT? And if the filer does not have the room in DMI, it forces one to cut back on necessary expenses (on paper) and perhaps end up in a bad plan.

                  Originally posted by justbroke View Post
                  The real question isn't how much the mortgage payment is, at this point. Again, at this point, the question is, how much of that Trustee payment is "disposable monthly income" (DMI). Of course, what makes a Chapter 13 so complex is that the Plan must pay the Chapter 7 liquidation value as well. There are factors that can't be seen just by looking at the "payment" to the Chapter 13 Trustee.

                  Suffice it to say that I think that the poster has a troubled and infeasible plan. I'm surprised that it wasn't disallowed for the mere fact that a family of 4 can't live on $600 a month. Okay, yes, there are families of 4 that live on less than $600/month, but they are entitled (can I use that word?) to assistance.
                  Get mortgage modified: DONE! 7 months of back interest payments amortized, payment reduced over $200/mo
                  (In the 'planning' stage, to file ch. 13 if/when we have to.)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @rdwng11, do you have any attorney fees being paid in the plan, any taxes, or anything else 'priority'? Any non-exempt assets you are needing to cover?
                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    No. We paid the attorney fees upfront. No taxes included. Nothing else priority. We are simply trying to handle the arrears on the mortgage and of course pay any additional amount towards unsecured debts.

                    Now that I'm getting more educated in this process (something I should have done sooner) I am also questioning the value of having the Trustee pay the base mortgage payment. That is the bulk of the Trustee fees (just over $6,000). I am meeting with attorney today and think it is not unreasonable to have the plan modified to address all of the issues I've outlined including paying the mortgage on my own, reducing the trustee fees and using those funds in a better manner.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Some things are district specific or trustee specific. Which I think sort of translates into trustees get to say whether you have to pay thru wage order, what is paid in the plan, etc. I don't think they are in the BK code so one could try to fight them - but playing by the trustee's 'rules' means you get less scrutiny??

                      From the #s you've given, it seems you have a clear case to revise your plan. Make your atty go over your expenses/current disposable income. Insist on a plan modification. If your TT fees are 10% (mortgage in) then it seems you should have a case to claim up to ~$350 more expenses on the 42 month plan. Or go to 60 and be able to claim ~$450 more in expenses. And still meet the basic plan minimums, with next to nothing going to unsecured. More if your TT fee is less than 10% of course, and more if your mortgage came out.
                      Get mortgage modified: DONE! 7 months of back interest payments amortized, payment reduced over $200/mo
                      (In the 'planning' stage, to file ch. 13 if/when we have to.)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        SMinGA...

                        Thanks for your well thought out advice and support.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We were about $16,000.00 behind in our mortgage when the chapter 13 began. However, I worked with my mortgage company (Wells Fargo) to modify my loan. They increased the principal balance from about 155,000.00 to 172,000.00 and lowered our rate from 6.00% to 5.125%. This allowed us to take the arrears out of our bankruptcy and lower our trustee payments about $300.00. At the same time, it did not increase my mortgage payment due to the interest rate decrease. This may be an option for you as well. The government program (HMP) allows for interest rates as low as 2.00% to help keep you in the home. Anyway, just something to think about, it really helped us out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            @jamesalip: we are just starting a ch 13 too with the arrears on wells fargo. how far were you into the 13 when you got the mod? we have our 341 in a week. Just wondering if it is possible they would take 1/2 of our arrears and rework a plan so we have a lower ch 13 payment. how did you go about doing that? did you have to ask your attorney first before contacting wells? any info is much appreciated!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              frankies_mom - All good questions that I intended to ask jamesalip as well. In doing some research I did find the official website for the program Jamesalip referred to. You can find it at http://www.makinghomeaffordable.com . I have emailed my lawyer asking what the proper course is to apply while in CH. 13. I will post any useful information.

                              Comment

                              Unconfigured Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X