How will Obama v. Democrats v. Republican Battle Play Out?

[shark66]

Having lived - and worked - in an European high-tax environment for a number of years, in both very small and very large businesses, I will say that tax increase of any kind - especially in rough economic waters - is a very bad idea.

Taxes are demoralizing and kill growth, in the long run, slowly but surely. We were watching over our sales growth like hawks as the end of the year was nearing so we wouldn't cross the magic line allowing HM to take two thirds of our net gain...times might have changed, they might have learned something in the process, but many more holy cows are yet to be slaughtered in Europe for it to regain any prospect of economic recovery...

The biggest one of them being the whole EU/euro concept...which needs to be gone yesterday...

My $0.02 only...

[msm859]

But, here is the thing, why have a Death Tax, why can't someone build up wealth and pass it along to their family. AGAIN, NO ONE IS ANSWERING (or is avoiding answering because there is not good answer), is why have a death tax in the first place.

Have you ever played monopoly? The game ends and is no longer any fun after someone owns everything. Without an inheritance tax that is EXACTLY what will happen. When a 1000 (or pick your small number) people own everything that will not be good for society. Why is income tax any more fair than inheritance tax. What if we could eliminate the income tax and only have inheritance tax. That way you could spend all the money you earn and anything else is then taxed -- think how stimulative that would be to the economy? The reality is that the government needs x dollars to run (even after you have cut everything you say should be cut). If you don't have an inheritance tax you will have to collect that revenue someplace else. Do you raise everyone's "income" tax? Again why is that more fair? What is the benefit to society to give a few super rich families huge tax cuts at the expense of everyone else? Is it better to protect more Paris Hilton's while some families will then either pay more taxes or worse cut more programs so we can not afford student aid, bridge repair etc.?
Iit is a misconception that this money has already been "taxed" before. Most of it has not. If my rich uncle bought 10K of Apple stock 20 years ago and he dies this year (were we have 0 inheritance tax) I just made @$3,000,000 tax free. I get a stepped up basis. I can sell it tomorrow ZERO taxes on that $2,990,000 profit. How is that fair to the person who works 40 hours a week scraping by and will never make that much in his whole life and pays substantial taxes?

Finally from someone else: "The growing disposition to tax more and more heavily large estates left at death is a cheering indication of the growth of a salutary change in public opinion. The State of Pennsylvania now takes -- subject to some exceptions -- one tenth of the property left by its citizens. The budget presented in the British Parliament the other day proposes to increase the death duties; and, most significant of all, the new tax is to be a graduated one. Of all forms of taxation this seems the wisest. Men who continue hoarding great sums all their lives, the proper use of which for public ends would work good to the community from which it chiefly came, should be made to feel that the community, in the form of the State, cannot thus be deprived of its proper share. By taxing estates heavily at death the State marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life."
"Under its sway we shall have an ideal State, in which the surplus wealth of the few will become, in the best sense, the property of the
many, because administered for the common good; and this wealth, passing through the hands of the few, can be made a much more potent force for the elevation of our race than if distributed in small sums to the people themselves. Even the poorest can be made to see this,
and to agree that great sums gathered by some of their fellow-citizens and spent for public purposes, from which the masses reap the principal benefit, are more valuable to them than if scattered among themselves in trifling amounts through the course of many years."
Andrew Carnegie.

[helpme2010]

If I were wealthy, I guess I would be upset seeing my money being taken away by the government for taxes or half the inheritance going to the government. I understand we are not a socialistic country, but I think there has to be somewhat of a more fairer distribution of wealth when we have a serious wealth distribution problem that is of biblical proportions. It makes me think of what happens when I see Beverly Hills multi-millionaires next door to the skid row homeless, or homeless in Santa Monica walking next to the richest of rich. I understand the poor and homeless that got where they were due to drugs or other problems, but our society has gotten so far out of control, we are one step away from being a third world country where all you have is the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor.

[WhatMoney]

I understand the poor and homeless that got where they were due to drugs or other problems, but our society has gotten so far out of control, we are one step away from being a third world country where all you have is the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor.

I hope you realize the "other problems" for the homeless far outweigh the drug excuse. Some homeless may use drugs after they are homeless, but that is seldom the root cause. Here is a list of the Causes of Homelessness:

Factors Contributing to Homelessness

* Automobile related - Broken down car, no insurance, tickets, etc.

* Decline in Public Assistance - Current TANF benefits and food stamps combined are below the poverty level in every state; in fact, the median TANF benefit for a family of three is approximately one-third of the poverty level. Thus, contrary to popular opinion, welfare does not provide relief from poverty.

* Divorce - Divorce often leaves one of the spouses homeless. Most often it’s the father, but sometimes it’s the mother and children or everyone involved.

* Domestic Violence - Battered women who live in poverty are often forced to choose between abusive relationships and homelessness.

* Drug and Alcohol related problems - Rates of alcohol and drug abuse are disproportionately high among the homeless population.

* Illness - For families and individuals struggling to pay the rent, a serious illness or disability can start a downward spiral into homelessness, beginning with a lost job, depletion of savings to pay for care, and eventual eviction.

* Job loss - No income to pay rent.

* Lack of affordable housing- The lack of affordable housing has lead to high rent burdens (rents which absorb a high proportion of income), overcrowding, and substandard housing.

* Lack of child support - In families where child support is ordered but not paid, the decrease in income can lead to an inability to pay rent, utilities, or both.

* Low wages - Declining wages have put housing out of reach for many workers: in every state, more than the minimum wage is required to afford a one- or two-bedroom apartment at Fair Market Rent.

* Mental Illness - Approximately 20-25% of the single adult homeless population suffer from some form of severe and persistent mental illness.

* Natural Disaster / Fire - Situations where due to chance a fire, tornado, flood or hurricane renders housing inhabitable.

* Physical Disabilities - Disabled individuals may be unable to work or find appropriate employment. For those receiving SSI, they often struggle to obtain and maintain stable housing.

* Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - This disorder is common with veterans and those that have been in violent situations. It can make it difficult to have a stable life.

* Poverty - Being poor means being an illness, an accident, or a paycheck away from living on the streets.

* Roommates - When one or more roommates falls through with their end of the bargain, they can be a reason for others becoming homeless.

* Severe Depression - Can make it impossible for an individual to maintain a stable life.

* Tragedy - It is surprising how many people just quit functioning because their families died or were killed...sometimes recently...other times 15 years ago...other times 30 years ago.

http://homelessresourcenetwork.org/causes.html

Another comment you've made - "that most people on welfare have never worked and do not work now" is another false belief. 85% of all welfare recipients have held previous jobs. And 60% of welfare recipients are working, the working poor. And UE benefits beyond the normal 26 weeks for those not working is also, by definition, welfare, since that money is not from a State insurance fund, but from general tax revenues, just like all other forms of federal government welfare. Food Stamps (SNAP) are also welfare. Many working families qualify for and receive food stamps.

[helpme2010]

Whatmoney, excellent list you brought up, thanks for the additional education. I can easily see how someone can become homeless, because I have gotten so close without the job. Thankfully unemployment extensions have been a tremendous help during the recession. I can also imagine some people come out of the war with illness and are left behind by society. Plus a host of other reasons that nobody should judge.

I think sometimes we as a society judge people and even blame people for needing help, rather than just showing some basic compassion.

[tobee43]

Whatmoney, excellent list you brought up, thanks for the additional education. I can easily see how someone can become homeless, because I have gotten so close without the job. Thankfully unemployment extensions have been a tremendous help during the recession. I can also imagine some people come out of the war with illness and are left behind by society. Plus a host of other reasons that nobody should judge.

I think sometimes we as a society judge people and even blame people for needing help, rather than just showing some basic compassion.

well...finally whatmoney....great post..LOL!!!

i agree helpme...it's so unfortunate, but it's a reality and i do believe it will get even worse than now.

[helpme2010]

well...finally whatmoney....great post..LOL!!!

i agree helpme...it's so unfortunate, but it's a reality and i do believe it will get even worse than now.

tobee, it's funny, I used to be rich, especially for my age. I bought my house at a young age as well. I was like Alex P. Keeton on Family Ties. I never had sympathy for unemployed or homeless people, as I had no grasp. It's like the walking a mile in someones shoes before judging them.

I had a life transformation a decade ago after losing a job and went in and out of jobs after that. I have changed the way I think about homeless and welfare and unemployed people for the last decade. I also volunteered for many charity functions during that period. I know when I get back on my feet I will do some charity volunteer work to help the poor in the future as well.

[tobee43]

tobee, it's funny, I used to be rich, especially for my age. I bought my house at a young age as well. I was like Alex P. Keeton on Family Ties. I never had sympathy for unemployed or homeless people, as I had no grasp. It's like the walking a mile in someones shoes before judging them.

I had a life transformation a decade ago after losing a job and went in and out of jobs after that. I have changed the way I think about homeless and welfare and unemployed people for the last decade. I also volunteered for many charity functions during that period. I know when I get back on my feet I will do some charity volunteer work to help the poor in the future as well.

it really is humbling for many to go through this. we are just listening to cnn again and it's saying unemployment has risen in 21 states and as soon as this bill is finally signed it will at least extend the benefits for the 13 weeks...

o...here we go the vp of the United States is going to speak now..i have to listen...

[helpme2010]

I am still confused as to what the hell is going on with the 99ers and my unemployment extension

[tobee43]

well....take a look at the posting i put up...it came directly from the fed site...

the president just extended it 13 more weeks....or did he???

it seems to me the 99ers will get some more time according to what was just said...but it's so confusing and unclear.

this is FEDERAL monies and NOT state....so i don't know if it's going to be only in states with higher than national averages...ahhhhhhhhhh

[WhatMoney]

it seems to me the 99ers will get some more time according to what was just said...but it's so confusing and unclear.

this is FEDERAL monies and NOT state....so i don't know if it's going to be only in states with higher than national averages...ahhhhhhhhhh

It is not confusing or unclear at all. Why don't you just turn OFF the television and radio, and try reading about the bill? Why do you think the TV talking heads understand what they are talking about? They are not attorneys or lawmakers or economists - they are more like circus performers. The details of the Obama/Republican agreement were clearly stated from the start. They never changed. All you had to do is to READ about the details from a reputable source.

And BTW, all of my posts are "great".

[chrisdfw]

Its really interesting that everybody really focuses on the source of the money and who should be taxed, but we never really consider why we have to pay for such a bloated federal government. Do I have an obligation to pay for your medical care? Should I have to bear the costs of feeding another child for a welfare case? You tell me where it ends.

The government has no business acting like robin hood. I should not have to pay for other people's personal choices. The fact is in this country if you do just a few simple things you can reduce your chances of ending up in poverty by 99%.
1. Don't be a criminal, it ruins your job opportunities.
2. Don't do drugs, they cause lots of problems, and see #1
3. Don't have children with people you are not married to.
4. If you get married, stay married.
If you do these things you reduce your chances of being in poverty by 99%. If everyone did these things, I bet the people who ended up poor due to injury, illness, or misfortune could be taken care of by charity. But since people make bad choices, our government feels the need to subsidize those people by stealing money from other productive people.

The federal government has a few legitimate functions, coining money, defending us (even our borders). If it stuck to those things we wouldn't have to talk about all these taxes. The states can handle other functions as they see fit. Let california be a welfare state, let texas have free markets, let massachusetts have gay marriage, let new york be a section 8 ghetto. See which states prosper and then the other states can decide to adopt those policies. We really need to shift government back to the states so we can see some innovation in government. When one state makes a mistake, it doesn't have to be repeated in 49 others.

I hate seeing money taken out of my pocket so that I have to support others who are not working. No society can survive on the back of the productive few supporting many who are unproductive. There is no reason social security recipients can't contribute. they know things and have value, they need not be relegated to leaches on the backs of society. Welfare cases can work, and should work, I need someone to scrub my floors, but unfortunately they don't have to scrub my floors to get my money, all they need to do is demand that the government take the money from me and give to them... and my floors are still dirty. When the government takes my money and gives it to welfare cases and section 8 housing recipients I get nothing in return. Those people should have to do work in order to earn their benefits, that way I can get something for my money. Everyone ends up better off.... you know what we call that... work. Jobs. If people didn't have the opportunity to steal from me, they would have to get jobs.

When they had jobs they would pay taxes and we would all be better off.

I am morally against taxing the rich if we use it for redistribution. Especially to wealthy bankers as has been the custom under Bush and Obama. We have too much taxes in this country not too little. We need to reduce spending, and we need to start with social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, section 8, welfare (if you are on these programs I don't blame you, its the voters that vote to steal from me to provide these things that I blame, the recipients are just acting rationally to the incentives we give)

From there we can get rid of federal control over education, school lunches, healthcare, etc and return the power to the laboratories of innovation known as the states. Let the competition determine the winners. Those who invest in productivity will prosper, those who steal and invest in welfare will end up broke, as all welfare states are inevitably doomed to be.

[helpme2010]

crisdfw, there are two types to discuss, welfare and the unemployed who are collecting on the unemployment insurance that they have paid into the system. e.g. I have paid over 20 years out of my paycheck every week into the unemployment insurance fund. So now that the economy has tanked and there are few jobs available, those that are unemployed are using the system that they have paid into (quite different from welfare).

I could see your point about not taxing the rich more if you were the same on giving money to the unemployed and welfare people. But you can't give one without the other. Remember, the unemployed will eventually be on the payroll again, providing taxes and helping society (but if you turn them away and throw them on the streets, you will create a massive class of millions of homeless that will end up costing our society much more than if you help them during their time of trying to find a job). I don't know anyone that is on unemployment that wants to be on unemployment. They want a fricken job so they can live a better life, like they did before, period.

[chrisdfw]

crisdfw, there are two types to discuss, welfare and the unemployed who are collecting on the unemployment insurance that they have paid into the system.

Sorry, my point is about the taxes issue. Unemployment causes some of the same problems, but my point is we wouldn't have such a big tax debate if the government wasn't involved in so many things.

Unemployment should also be a state run program. If california offers 99 weeks and nevada offers 200 weeks, that is their business, the federal government really shouldn't get involved.

Unemployment does cause some of the same issues, because if causes people to turn down work they would otherwise take. I understand the benefits, and even used it myself, I am not against anyone who is unemployed or on unemployment, just think we need to consider how we structure it. The fact is that some people turn down work because it is less than their unemployment benefits (who wouldn't, that is rational behavior). I think that we all need to take more responsibility for ourselves and consider making unemployment insurance subject to a little longer waiting period and a decrease in benefits over time. But it should be on a state by state basis.

I don't believe that without welfare we will have a massive class on the street and homeless. I believe they will find productive things to do with their lives. The people on welfare have things to contribute and value, sometimes the welfare system may even convince them that they do not and they are victims, but I do not believe it. They have ideas and labor to contribute, but we pay them not to.

I'd be willing to hire people to do some hard labor, but it is hard for me to find anyone willing because of the welfare system. If they had to do it to feed their families, I bet they would, but we have created a system where it is better not to work. Collecting food stamps, section 8, welfare, WIC, medicaid may be preferable to scrubbing floors for minimum wage, but scrubbing floors is better than starving. The problem is we should not offerthe choice of welfare over starving. We should offer work over starving.

I have fences that need staining, floors that need scrubbing, painting, all sorts of work that I would be willing to pay minimum wage to get done, but nobody wants to do that, it means giving up their welfare. At least if they did the work I would get something for my money. by distributing through government there is a dead weight loss, I get nothing and they get the money. With work I get something and they get something.

That is why redistribution through government is wrong, it offers nothing in return for the person giving up the money. Society ends up worse off because we lose the productivity of people who would otherwise contribute.

The same goes for social security. There are lots of things that the elderly can contribute, but we push them aside and give them a government check. Throughout society we devalue people's contributions when we give them money for nothing. We tell people they don't have anything to contribute so we have to give them a handout. I don't believe it. I believe almost everybody can contribute.

[helpme2010]

chris, I think you have a lot valid points here. I also think that someone who does take a really low paying job, could perhaps collect a smaller size unemployment check to help out (perhaps that would motivate people that you are referring to not to turn down low paying jobs, because they would come out better than not taking the job at all and it would also save the tax payers some money for these types of people).

I think one problem is how many writeoffs corporate executives and business owners make. For example, I know many CEO's and business owners that buy thousands of dollars of alcohol for themselves and write it off to the company, take personal vacations and write it off, and a host of other loop holes that end up taking money away from paying down the deficit. So I think there needs to be some fairness on both sides, both the rich and poor.

I understand the wealthy pay the majority of the revenue for the government, yet they are also in a position not to worry about survival and if they will end up homeless or not, compared with those living in absolute poverty. Those in poverty should be given tools to help them get back on their feet in a realistic way, especially during a recession. Believe me, those in poverty want to be making bank again so they can live a better life and contribute to the economy.