Political Discussion

[justbroke]

My point is, given a chance people will fraud, business or govenment.

I can put it even simpler. When there's a lot of money on the table... there will be an equal amount of fraud, waste, and abuse.

[WhatMoney]

People have much higher bills today... tv was free, phones were cheap, lots of things have changed

BTW momisery, TV is still free (over-the-air and digital quality too), and my land line phone costs me all of $12/month. People are suckered into getting the expensive alternatives today - for no good reason other than advertising or stupidity.

At last count I get 28 channels in free digital TV, most of them HD. I only really need one: the local PBS channels.

[backtoschool]

And who do you suppose the Government would have run the newly created Bank of the United States?

(I'll give you one hint... their initials are G.S. LOL Because only people of that caliber could ruin a financial system. Misspell intended.)

Your post made me smile justbroke.

Goldman-Sachs only cares about Goldman Sachs. Goldman would hedge against our growth, our future, and even our national survival, if it would make them a dollar. They are the biggest "hedge fund" out there and they are betting on our failure.

They hedged against CIT, hedged against AIG, and made a lot of money doing so. They got a double payout in the AIG debacle. They got paid by AIG (which means they got paid by the american taxpayer) and they got paid by shorting AIG and hedging against AIG in the market.

But....

They also are a necessary evil. They fuel a lot of growth and are the most stable and most savvy of our investment banks.

I have very mixed emotions about Goldman Sachs. To me they represent the best and the worst of Wall Street.

[WhatMoney]

I thought jb was talking about George Soros....

[backtoschool]

I thought jb was talking about George Soros....

Maybe justbroke did mean Soros. But I needed to rant about Goldman, so I conveniently used the GS initials to serve my purpose. Besides, as the father of the "super-bubble" theory, Soros is too competent to run our financial system.

But....

With his insider trading skills and his financial acumen, Soros would be a good chief executive of Goldman Sachs.

[WhatMoney]

With his insider trading skills and his financial acumen, Soros would be a good chief executive of Goldman Sachs.

Or the Bank of the United States.

LOL - the conspiracy right wingers would blow their gaskets.

[justbroke]

I thought jb was talking about George Soros....

I'll never tell.

[momisery]

Perfect, and I blame that on society because we allow that behavior and we allow people to hide behind our laws and our constitution and bill of rights. There is right and wrong but we seem to give a whole bunch of grey area.

[momisery]

You could be right about the sucker in many cases. But in our case, our jobs demand that we have cell phone and internet access yet they do not wish to pay for them. In todays job market you need all the tools you can get to land a job and keep it. As for TV, I myself do not like our DISC network, but without it we do not get one channel clearly and I live a few miles out in a small rural town, so that could be why.

[MSbklawyer]

Goldman would hedge against our growth, our future, and even our national survival, if it would make them a dollar. They are the biggest "hedge fund" out there and they are betting on our failure.

Is there something untoward about that, BTS? I mean, is there something about shorting a stock (or a currency or, for that matter, a country as a whole) that actually contributes to its demise -- like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something?

I ask because people who bet against the dollar or who take a financial position that would benefit at the U.S.'s misfortunes are spoken about on the financial news programs in the same tone of voice and with the same facial expressions as one would use when talking the dog do-do they had to scrape off the bottom of their shoe -- kind of like you did when referring to Goldman. But as I see it, if the horse you bet against is going to lose, it's going to lose; and betting that way doesn't make it any more likely to be so -- or does it in the financial world?

[backtoschool]

Is there something untoward about that, BTS? I mean, is there something about shorting a stock (or a currency or, for that matter, a country as a whole) that actually contributes to its demise -- like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something?

I ask because people who bet against the dollar or who take a financial position that would benefit at the U.S.'s misfortunes are spoken about on the financial news programs in the same tone of voice and with the same facial expressions as one would use when talking the dog do-do they had to scrape off the bottom of their shoe -- kind of like you did when referring to Goldman. But as I see it, if the horse you bet against is going to lose, it's going to lose; and betting that way doesn't make it any more likely to be so -- or does it in the financial world?

I see your point, MSbklawyer, but yes, there is something very ""untoward" about Goldman shorting AIG and CIT, Wells Fargo, etc. First of all, Goldman made billions shorting AIG, and then made billions more when AIG paid them for their default swap losses. But AIG didn't pay them really. We paid AIG as a bailout and then AIG gave that money to Goldman. That is money that could have gone to job creation, food stamps, mortgage refinancing, etc....

Secondly, Goldman shorted actual CDS assets, which helped the escalation that brought Lehman and Bear down. Goldman shorted against many of the banks, which helped to bring them down and get them sold off to competitors at fire sale prices. We will be paying for this debacle for years as taxpayers and also as banking consumers who will have less access to loans and will have our fees raised on basic banking services.

So, in my opinion, what Goldman did is a little more destructive than betting on a losing horse to lose.

What is worse, is that Goldman's shorting was private investing for a private, in house hedge fund that they always traded for before executing their client's trades. Again, this practice costs companies profits which slows down job creation,etc....

[MSbklawyer]

Secondly, Goldman shorted actual CDS assets, which helped the escalation that brought Lehman and Bear down. Goldman shorted against many of the banks, which helped to bring them down and get them sold off to competitors at fire sale prices.

Thats what I'm asking: How does shorting a company or a bank help bring it down? How does betting something will happen cause it to happen?

[momisery]

Is there something untoward about that, BTS? I mean, is there something about shorting a stock (or a currency or, for that matter, a country as a whole) that actually contributes to its demise -- like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something?

Of all the things people are slamed for about being "unpatriotic", I believe this is ... Betting against your own nation, or hoping your nation fails so a certain policial party is tossed from office is horrible and it is asking for many Americans to suffer. How can people be so down on this nation? I am not a huge fan of war, kind of goes back to the Nam days when you were there to fight but micro managed from Washington. But I NEVER... EVER have wished that we fail, or that Nixon would die, or any of that crazy stuff. I do not believe in spreading lies to prove a point either. In highschool if you ran for office they expected a fair fight, not a smear campaign. I expect the same on a much higher level. Adults run for office, it is time they start acting like adults .. instead they spread lies, fill their speeches with false promises and half truths, and pretend to be what they are not... either country hick, or a beer drinking joe, or a good ole boy, or a common working class citizen. We seem to have none of that type ever running for office anymore. We have the insideres group instead. Very frustrating...

[momisery]

Nothing I post is to be considered legal advice. You'd be foolish to give credence to anything I write. I graduated last in my class from a fly-by-night law school that no longer exists; I never studied or went to class and I only post on forums when I'm very, very drunk. Howzat for a disclaimer

IF I bet something would lose it would probably have zero effect, but if some people with the power of money and influence behind them vote that way it will take it down as others will follow in kind. Voting that oil will go up of course pushes it up as the value goes up. Voting against the country to live in saying it will fail is not only unpatriotic, but again it creates a mind set that gee if George knows then he must be right as he is powerful... jmho and I am not drunk lol

[backtoschool]

Thats what I'm asking: How does shorting a company or a bank help bring it down? How does betting something will happen cause it to happen?

It lowers the stock price faster than the company can cover the losses and the company goes under for no real reason other than speculation. It creates a feeding frenzy. Program trade programs get triggered once the stock lowers a certain percentage and huge amounts of stock are dumped automatically onto the market, making the situation worse, and creating a downward spiral. If the shorting is happening as a naked short then, that short is unlimited and can push the price downward faster than it should be able to.