Political Discussion

[MSbklawyer]

If the shorting is happening as a naked short . . .

I had to look that term up. I thought that when someone shorted a stock they always had to borrow the share that they were selling.

Yeah, if you can short a stock without having to borrow the share from someone, I can see how that would push share prices down.

Those slimy bastiges.

[justbroke]

"Trade Programs"... I never understood those until I almost worked for Fidelity. It's the big funds (and institutions) that move massive amounts of stocks in one fell swoop because some "trigger" is hit. I call this the butterfly affect as this trigger will cause another "Trade Program" to hit it's trigger and then the frenzy is on. It's incredible because it's not even humans doing this.

[backtoschool]

"Trade Programs"... I never understood those until I almost worked for Fidelity. It's the big funds (and institutions) that move massive amounts of stocks in one fell swoop because some "trigger" is hit. I call this the butterfly affect as this trigger will cause another "Trade Program" to hit it's trigger and then the frenzy is on. It's incredible because it's not even humans doing this.

Great point justbroke. The trading programs move so fast, and control so big a percentage of available shares, and trigger on so many triggers, that they can bring a company down quite quickly if they are triggered.

[WhatMoney]

The GOP's Misplaced Rage

The GOP's Misplaced RageReaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action and Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy . His latest book, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, will be published by Palgrave Macmillan in October, 2009.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-12/the-gops-misplaced-rage/full/

[keepinitreal]

The Teacher's Lesson

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had recently failed an entire class.

That class had insisted that "spreading the wealth" in politics worked, and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on spreading the wealth".

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D!

No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that "spreading the wealth" would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

[WhatMoney]

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had recently failed an entire class.

Of course you know this is just a chain letter sent out by conservatives, and is an urban legend (Snopes traced it back to 1994).

It is also a silly and irrelevant example of nothing that exists. It isn't even a good example of Communism, since there were winners and losers even in a Communist society. It certainly has nothing to do with Socialism or "spreading the wealth", although most conservatives seem to use the two words interchangeability, only showing their ignorance of economic systems.

When Obama signs a bill dictating that everyone in the USA, regardless of job (or not), occupation, experience, or education will get exactly the same salary, I might get worried.

Experiment in Capitalism

A college professor, who had never failed a student before, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that capitalism worked and that no one should get anything they didn’t earn. The professor then said, “OK we will have an experiment in this class on capitalism.”

All grades would be earned according to a curve style grading. Before the first test, pages in library books were ripped out by students in order to get a competitive edge over the other students in the class. Many of the students failed the test because they could not access the necessary information needed to pass. The students who cheated for the A threw the entire grading curve, causing even more to fail. Yet the A students continued to sabotage the other students to ensure their own high grade. The curve became so extreme between the A students and the remainder of the class, an investigation ensued.

The A students were found to be cheating and were thrown out. The other students were unable to access the necessary information and had to retake the class.

The entire experiment failed because the greed of a few, denied many.

The end.

[keepinitreal]

A grasshopper spent the warm months singing away while the ant worked to store up food for winter. When winter arrived, the grasshopper found itself dying of hunger, and upon asking the ant for food was only rebuked for its idleness.

DISCLAIMER: THIS DID NOT REALLY HAPPEN. However, you may still read it and take away from it what you will.

[OHBOY]

Quote by 'What Money' : "Of course you know this is just a chain letter sent out by conservatives, and is an urban legend (Snopes traced it back to 1994)."



Chain letter or not, it's a wonderful example of true human behavior and does in many ways resemble the typical behavior that was found (i.e.) in the former communist E. Germany with the interesting store front name of: 'DDR/Deutsche DEMOKRATISCHE REPUBLIK' (German Democratic Republic).......

[WhatMoney]

Chain letter or not, it's a wonderful example of true human behavior and does in many ways resemble the typical behavior that was found (i.e.) in the former communist E. Germany with the interesting store front name of: 'DDR/Deutsche DEMOKRATISCHE REPUBLIK' (German Democratic Republic).......

No, it is a fictional example of atypical human behavior. Once the class realized that if no one studied, they would all fail, the group would start to work for passing grades for everyone. The A students would take on more of the load to preserve the class grade, even if they had to settle for a B average for everyone. The A students would be smart enough to not resort to envy and hatred of the slackers, since it would not be in their own self interest to allow the class to fail.

The assumption that everyone would just give up and fail is not human behavior - communities would never thrive with that attitude. It may be the conservatives view of the world that everyone is on their own and there should be no group effort to succeed, since helping others is foolish. How would a conservative ever do military service with that attitude?

I think my example of the Experiment in Capitalism is more relevant to what is happening in the US today.

[backtoschool]

No, it is a fictional example of atypical human behavior. Once the class realized that if no one studied, they would all fail, the group would start to work for passing grades for everyone. The A students would take on more of the load to preserve the class grade, even if they had to settle for a B average for everyone. The A students would be smart enough to not resort to envy and hatred of the slackers, since it would not be in their own self interest to allow the class to fail.

The assumption that everyone would just give up and fail is not human behavior - communities would never thrive with that attitude. It may be the conservatives view of the world that everyone is on their own and there should be no group effort to succeed, since helping others is foolish. How would a conservative ever do military service with that attitude?

I think my example of the Experiment in Capitalism is more relevant to what is happening in the US today.

Both examples seem to me to be examples of game theory. Standard game theory suggests that working for passing grades for everyone would be in the A student's best interest, so they would carry the whole class, (and perhaps "punish" the slackers in another way later). But if you believe in the prisoner's dilemma then you will accept that the A students might sabatoge the other students in the class if they believe it is in their best interest to do so (even if in reality it will cause the whole class to fail) If the A student's believe that they can get away with sabatoging the other student's, then they may do so, even if the reality is that everyone ends up failing if even one A student sabatoges or cheats.

Both examples are interesting, but neither really captures capitalism or communism. In a free market economy, the A students would be able to earn A's or sell their A's to the other students. In a communist economy, grades would not necessarily be tied to performance, but would be assigned based on the greatest need, or distributed based on rules set up by the rulers. There would be no long lasting, independent standards to determine what is an A or what is a failing grade. (for example those who made a petition to the professor that they needed the A to get into law school to support their invalid mother might have the greatest need of an A, and get an A assigned on the basis of need....) Grades would be arbitrarily assigned in each assignment based on an analysis of the needs of the class as a whole and the production abilities of the class as a whole. As the A students stopped producing, the class would not fail, but the grade would be redistributed based on the new balance of production and need. Someone would still get an A (either the neediest or the most productive, depending on how the professor was arbitrarily distributing grades).

In anycase, it's an interesting set of examples....

[OHBOY]

No, it is a fictional example of atypical human behavior. Once the class realized that if no one studied, they would all fail, the group would start to work for passing grades for everyone. The A students would take on more of the load to preserve the class grade, even if they had to settle for a B average for everyone. The A students would be smart enough to not resort to envy and hatred of the slackers, since it would not be in their own self interest to allow the class to fail.

The assumption that everyone would just give up and fail is not human behavior - communities would never thrive with that attitude. It may be the conservatives view of the world that everyone is on their own and there should be no group effort to succeed, since helping others is foolish. How would a conservative ever do military service with that attitude?

I think my example of the Experiment in Capitalism is more relevant to what is happening in the US today.

Well, I strongly disagree...Please allow me to offer my own life experience and subsequent lesson:
In third grade my teacher (in Germany) gave out little paste ons as reward for especially good school performance. I loved those, and found them enticing enough to strive to give it my 'all' to be able to get another 'goody'.

I worked hard after school, and turned in what I knew was far superior to anybody elses homework assignment. However, the paste-on did not go to me but to the teachers 'pet', in a matter of fact I was told that I did not (supposently could not...) have possibly drawn the drawing I turned in.

Sooo.... ticked off, I stopped performing...and consequently ended up with a report card that noted: 'xxxx will only perform if allowed to expect reward and recognition'
...needless to say, it was not viewed as an attribute, but instead as quite a negative...

It was not until I was about 30 years old that I finally realized that what had been viewed as a negative is actually a positive, and striving to accomplish in order to achive for reward and recognition is a desirable trait in order to fullfill goals and to be most productive.
And.....as an immigrant (legal) to the US I was indeed able to be quite productive and successful in a capitalist environment.

Unfortunally I have seen many undesirable changes in the US. For one, it used to be that one could proudly proclaim to be an American, no matter which part of the world.
Today, one most likely will want to be quiet about revealing that little 'tidbit'.......actually today, when visiting countries abroad, very often I feel like the little stepchild, or more as though I just freshly came from the former E. Germany...

With my experience from the 3rd grade I hope to be able to demonstrate that taking incentives away is to destroy the motivation to strive.

I don't believe 'sharing the wealth' is a good thing.

I believe that an 'almighty' government is not only to be feared, but dangerous, and I believe in the importance to fight government controls that limit the ingenuities of the individual.

I strongly believe in the right to bear arms, if for no other reason than to keep an overbearing government in check...

I don't believe in things like 'means testing' (i.e) for SS, as again it makes one think of how productive one should be...after all going 'over the limit' just by a tad, could put one into a different tax bracket....sooo, instead of rewarding possibly a life of productivity it penalizes a hard working citizen...

Having grown up with a routine of going into a doctors office and unrobing down to 'split naked' versa being offered a robe that was hanging on the wall for for 'first class', I also oppose a government run health care plan for all.... I have had that experience, and it is not a good one....

More recently I was on a cruise, and conversed with a couple from England. The wife was on this trip against the advice of her doctor, as she had a heart condition and was waiting for an opening to have open heart surgery...in about 6 months........No, Thank You !

I also recall years ago, walking into a VA hospital in CA with the idea of applying for a job ..... Never made it to the interview.... what I saw in the hospital rooms led me walk right down the hallway and out the door at the other end......The conditions were just awful...No, Thank You! I don't want government care !

I believe in LEGAL immigration that not only requires a background check but also the typical health check...for one thing to stop the inflow of unchecked diseases, such as deadly strains of TB.......interestingly I don't hear politians talk about that...

and.....please !!!! don't pamper immigrants ! Let them learn english without catering to translating in their mother tongue!!!

I thought it was interesting that when I went to college, credit was given for immigrants for 'english as a second language', however when I applied for that credit, since english is my second language, I was told that I was not eligible....guess it was only available to illegals ?...
Well, I did take the 'round about way' and challenged a few course in the german language and recieved extra college credit that way......

I hope my small examples give thought for pause.......

[Xue]

[Xue]

I hope that we don't see this here in the USA. The comments are interesting that have been posted.

Since I'm not posting this in the " Bankruptcy & Credit News" forum, do I have to post the entire article and piece and format it according to this:

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=24361

Riots erupt in Athens, 3 bank workers killed

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100505/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_greece_financial_crisis

Excerpt:

Three people died when a bank went up in flames Wednesday as tens of thousands of Greeks took to the streets to protest harsh spending cuts aimed at saving the country from bankruptcy.

And this excerpt:

Threats Of Civil War

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/denninger/denninger050410.html

Just reported: Greece will not cut public salaries or there will be civil war.

There's the gauntlet folks. It means that no "assistance" can actually succeed, because it is not possible to get the fiscal situation under control without significant cuts in public spending.

This, incidentally, is the same problem we have in the US, and why attempts to deal with our fiscal situation at both state and federal levels is going to end up in the same place eventually. The majority of our budget is comprised of handouts of one form or another, whether they be Social Security, Medicare, or public-sector salaries.

What about these tweets?

Protesters tell us Greek governments have been corrupt for 20 yrs. Thieves! Thieves! They cry.

The BBC and CNN watching all this from the safety of a hotel balcony. C4 with the sans culottes for now.

Stone throwing and bottles flying at police.

Police blocking steps to Greek parly.

More media than protesters on steps of Greek parliament. I am staying back.

It is some anarchists we have to worry about. One attacked my cameraman on Saturday. Nasty.

Big crowd shouting thieves thieves again at Greek parliament. And you thought the UK expenses scandal was bad?

Here we go tear gas.

Everyone coughing the tear gas. Ouzo badly needed.

Big cloud of tear gas we retreating.

Everyone coughing the tear gas. Ouzo badly needed.

Big cloud of tear gas we retreating.

Protesters lobbing flares at police.

Protesters trying to stop shops being attacked. Crowd leaving Syntagma sq. because of tear gas.

We back in front of parliament. Crowd shouting “it is a disgrace” from back streets

Police on motorbikes smashing through crowds. Street battles.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/video-of-protests-in-greece/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF7Hm4nrs-8

[Xue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlnOv-tVpYw

Gerald Celente : "one of our top trends of 2010 is the crash of 2010 , we have foretasted in December of 2009 that the global economy is going to collapse , and one of the primary reasons behind it is going to be a currency crisis , it's underway they can't stop it from happening , by the way what's going on in Greece with the IMF and the Economic Monetary Union bailout it's against the Maastricht agreement they are not supposed to be doing this , this is only a temporary fix it is not going to work , so as this fails we gonna see another crisis pile up upon it we are seeing before the new year of 2011 begins everyone will know that the crash of 2010 has occurred "
May 05, 2010 — Riots over harsh new austerity measures left three bank workers dead and engulfed the streets of Athens on Wednesday, as angry protesters tried to storm parliament. The protestors also hurled molotov cocktails at police and torched buildings, police responded with barrages of tear gas. Gerald Celente says that the protests are protesting the too big to fails.

Gerald Celente on Greece Riots

"the second american revolution has already begun"

[Xue]