Vacating Judgments in FL?

[justbroke]

I called the county and was told my property does not have any liens attached it it??

Don't call the county. Go to your county's Clerk of the Courts website. Then search the "Public Record". It is there you will see recorded "mortgages" and other "liens". If you have a mortgage, then you have a lien. The only thing to release a lien, is actually called a Release. It will also be "recorded" at the Clerk of the Court in the Public Records

[Freddy03]

I called the county and was told my property does not have any liens attached it it??

[tobee43]

I see not issue with this process in Florida. The process is only for "recorded" judgments which, by operation of law, lien against all property of the debtor. A bankruptcy never eradicates a "lien" unless the lien had been avoided during the bankruptcy. In other words, liens pass through bankruptcy as if nothing happened.

I think the issue in this particular case was not that a judgment is automatically void upon discharge... it's that a "judgment lien" is not automatically voided upon discharge. The distinction is subtle and sometimes confusing.

I just always remember these two rules when it comes to liens;

Rule #1 Liens pass through bankruptcy unaffected.
Rule #2 Certain liens can be avoided during a bankruptcy where it impairs an exemption.
Rule #3 If the lien was never avoided in the bankruptcy, then see Rule #1.

these rules are apparently, very important to be aware of, so that one can follow proper procedure to remove these "liens", at least here in florida. it's the terminology i think that gets confusing.

[justbroke]

I see not issue with this process in Florida. The process is only for "recorded" judgments which, by operation of law, lien against all property of the debtor. A bankruptcy never eradicates a "lien" unless the lien had been avoided during the bankruptcy. In other words, liens pass through bankruptcy as if nothing happened.

I think the issue in this particular case was not that a judgment is automatically void upon discharge... it's that a "judgment lien" is not automatically voided upon discharge. The distinction is subtle and sometimes confusing.

I just always remember these two rules when it comes to liens;

Rule #1 Liens pass through bankruptcy unaffected.
Rule #2 Certain liens can be avoided during a bankruptcy where it impairs an exemption.
Rule #3 If the lien was never avoided in the bankruptcy, then see Rule #1.

[tobee43]

Refer to the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution! States like to feel that they have some sovereign power over the land that is within their individual border. At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

isn't that the truth. in many cases it's a "good" thing, i can't ague with that. however, this process to vacate or satisfy a judgment after a federally held decision has been ordered, should be something made easier for those poor souls (including myself) or at least aid the process after a discharge and close order is issued to be a bit "easier".

[justbroke]

Refer to the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution! States like to feel that they have some sovereign power over the land that is within their individual border. At least that's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

[tobee43]

why can't this all be uniformly done the same???? state statues..they ruin it every time!

[justbroke]

No vacation home so I'm ok..lol How would this work since I'm letting my house go into FC?

Probably wouldn't work well for a Judgement creditor. Once they recorded their "lien" (judgement), they are now sequentially in line amongst the other lienholders. In other words, they are probably far down the list. If you are underwater, then they won't get anything! That's probably the sad state of the judgment lien itself.

But if you had equity and tried to sell, you'd need to satisfy that judgment lien during closing to get clean title.

[Freddy03]

Yes, they can't collect on either EXCEPT to the extent that the judgment which was recorded, and is now a judgment lien, may have attached to some property. If it attached to your homestead, then you have no worries due to the generous homestead exemption. If it attached to some other property such as an investment property (like a vacation condo), then the creditor could proceed to collect through "in rem" efforts to foreclose.

In most cases, it's not a problem and I haven't heard much where post-bankruptcy judgement liens are ever pursued, but you really should clean up the remnants of your pre-bankruptcy life. At least, that's what I believe.

No vacation home so I'm ok..lol How would this work since I'm letting my house go into FC?

[justbroke]

I have one judgment that is recorded because they successfully garnished wages before we filed BK. And the other judgment is not recorded. So I gues I'm screwed on the one that is recorded? Since I filed BK they can't collect from me...right?

Yes, they can't collect on either EXCEPT to the extent that the judgment which was recorded, and is now a judgment lien, may have attached to some property. If it attached to your homestead, then you have no worries due to the generous homestead exemption. If it attached to some other property such as an investment property (like a vacation condo), then the creditor could proceed to collect through "in rem" efforts to foreclose.

In most cases, it's not a problem and I haven't heard much where post-bankruptcy judgement liens are ever pursued, but you really should clean up the remnants of your pre-bankruptcy life. At least, that's what I believe.

[Freddy03]

Thanks both brokes..lol

I have one judgment that is recorded because they successfully garnished wages before we filed BK. And the other judgment is not recorded. So I gues I'm screwed on the one that is recorded? Since I filed BK they can't collect from me...right?

[justbroke]

IBroke, I believe that's entirely correct. It is to give the judgment lien creditor a chance to actually go after collateral. The problem with it, on a technical side, is that if they went against "real property", then they'd be stuck with the dreaded homestead exemption in the Florida Constitution (Article X Sec. 4). Personally, I think the whole thing is just silly, but they do have a valid recorded lien and it passed through the bankruptcy unaffected -- unless an order avoiding the lien was granted in the bankruptcy court.

[IBroke]

Tricky procedural stuff! That's why I say that it's better to try to avoid the judgment ever being recorded, which essentially means never letting it go to judgment. At least in Florida!

Oh, absolutely! Fortunately, only 1 (Chase) out of the 30 creditors I BKed on thought it would be necessary to obtain a judgment against me..

I think you are right about the reason behind the one year wait. I think I might recall somebody saying that this gives a lien holder the opportunity to react and exercise his/her rights if a judgment lien exists. Those motions to avoid lien are often forgotten by "not so good" attorneys and I believe it's quite a hassle to correct such an error.

[justbroke]

A judgment is nothing more than a claim reduced to some value (money). This is actually in the "court" records. However, to be effectual as a lien upon property, at least in Florida, it must be recorded in the "official" records. The strange this is, that the Clerk of the Court maintains the official records as well.

I don't know why a judgment creditor would not immediately turn around and record the judgment in the "official" records.

As for the year wait... it may be that a judgment lien actually survives the bankruptcy. Remember Rule #1 about liens in bankruptcy? All liens survive bankruptcy. The exception would be a lien that was voided under 522(f) where it impacted an exemption. However, you would have filed a Motion to Value or a Motion to Avoid Lien in the bankruptcy. In that case, you'd have an order from the bankruptcy court extinguishing the (judgment) lien.

Tricky procedural stuff! That's why I say that it's better to try to avoid the judgment ever being recorded, which essentially means never letting it go to judgment. At least in Florida!

[IBroke]

Ah, great info. And I was under the impression that once a creditor (or anybody else) obtained a judgment against, he/she would still have to go ahead and file something in addition to attach it to someone's property. I didn't know that the recording of a judgment was this "additional step". I always thought the recording was just "for the records" and I thought that all legal consequences of a judgment went into effect when it was obtained - not when it was recorded.

I guess I still lack some basic info due to the fact that I grew up in a different county..