341 Hearings - I observed 35 of them - here are my notes

[ccsjoe]

gman, this is awesome info. Thank you for investing the time not only to go but also to post!!

If I can take time off of work I will try to do the same for my district. I suspect there are quite a few people from my district on this board.

[tobee43]

Question: Were you over the median income for your area (and thus had to go through the Means Test)?

yes, very much so. after they factor back not paying the cc's which my atty argued..and won....as well as our district did not include unemploy insur payments which were over 3k monthly...but atty argued they were only temp...many districts still count the income and pull you into a 13. we did not hide a dime.

Question: What exactly did they ask for in terms of "documentation" prior to the 341? I've been trying to figure that issue out - especially for people who must pass the Means Test.

bank statements...since we had auto deposit they also acted as our "pay" stubs...3 years back taxes...contribution receipts since ours where quite high....copies of all deeds, trusts... and the like.

[ccsjoe]

Question: Were you over the median income for your area (and thus had to go through the Means Test)?

Not sure if you're asking only tobee, but I'll chip in. Yes, over means by 16K, completed and passed means test DMI positive $1.89. DMI positive in Schedule J $31.48.

Question: What exactly did they ask for in terms of "documentation" prior to the 341? I've been trying to figure that issue out - especially for people who must pass the Means Test.


I provided last 2 years tax returns, both state and fed, last 3/4 months bank account statements, last available statement for any other miscellaneous accounts, even if exempted, such as HSA or FSA, 401K, etc. Also provided last 7 months pay stubs. and will provided updated bank statements and pay stubs to cover the filing date.

These were requested by my attorney indicating that the trustee would probably not even want these.


Even when I file on Oct 1 my last 6 months' average income will be over the median income for my state.

However, in a strange twist of fate, the fact I owe a good amount of back taxes will help my case and make me qualify. The back taxes show up as a monthly secured debt and pump up my expenses so I show little to no DMI on the Means Test. Being currently unemployed I can show very little income on the Schedule I - so meeting that part of "qualifying" has not been my top concern. My concern has been, and continues to be, the Means Test.

I also owe a wholesome amount of back taxes and that helped us qualify for means testing purposes!

Good luck, hope these answers help although not same district.

[tobee43]

joe...i think the more people that answer that question the MORE help it is to everyone!!

so we were BOTH over the median income for our areas and it did not prevent us from filing chapter 7.

i think chapter 13 is designed to kill people!! except the BANKS and the ATTY's who changed the laws to get a large chuck of one's money!

[gman]

yes, very much so. after they factor back not paying the cc's which my atty argued..and won...

Question: Can you elaborate in detail on this? I am very familiar with the Means test (more than I ever planned on being) and would love to know where it came up.

.as well as our district did not include unemploy insur payments which were over 3k monthly...but atty argued they were only temp...many districts still count the income and pull you into a 13. we did not hide a dime.

I researched this in my district and found out that there is a case where unemployment income was included in Schedule I. I did not find anything for the Means Test - but am very concerned it is included here as well. I do agree it is a district by district decision from what I can see.

bank statements...since we had auto deposit they also acted as our "pay" stubs...3 years back taxes...contribution receipts since ours where quite high....copies of all deeds, trusts... and the like.

Wow. All debtors I spoke to were only asked for 1 month of bank statements and their 2009 tax return. Now, for all I know, none of them needed to pass the Means Test and this is why they had to cough up next to nothing. Time will tell.

I did note you did not have to cough up "bills" / receipts for food, daycare, utilities, etc. and other possible questionable expenses.

Question:Was this indeed the case?

I have just started collecting ALL of these recently just in case. I will likely only have 45 days worth when I file. Hope that will suffice.

[tobee43]

yes, very much so. after they factor back not paying the cc's which my atty argued..and won...

Question: Can you elaborate in detail on this? I am very familiar with the Means test (more than I ever planned on being) and would love to know where it came up.

when the trustee's office rec'd our petition they argued that we can't count our cc payments...our atty argued well, then of course who would ever have to file bk if they didn't factor in that amount....somehow he got it counted in, while the trustee's office finally gave in. this ALL happend prior to our 341....by the way.

bank statements...since we had auto deposit they also acted as our "pay" stubs...3 years back taxes...contribution receipts since ours where quite high....copies of all deeds, trusts... and the like.

Wow. All debtors I spoke to were only asked for 1 month of bank statements and their 2009 tax return. Now, for all I know, none of them needed to pass the Means Test and this is why they had to cough up next to nothing. Time will tel

we only needed to provide 6 months of bank statements...and pay stubs..ss...pension...unemploy ins. etc....the 1040's it was 3 years for us....but then remember i did overkill so there was absolutely NO question as to why we were filing...first it started with a small pay cut...then it went to 1/3 of the salary...we wanted that to be shown in documentation...which we did by the decrease over the past 3 years that reflected those financial changes. we supplied them without them asking...but found out later via the trustee's office they greatly appreciated us supplying them with the info...so they wanted them anyway. it was a proactive move on our part.
since we knew there may be questions.

[newbie2]

when the trustee's office rec'd our petition they argued that we can't count our cc payments...our atty argued well, then of course who would ever have to file bk if they didn't factor in that amount....somehow he got it counted in, while the trustee's office finally gave in. this ALL happend prior to our 341....by the way.


.

Really????? Credit card payments are never included in the schedules as expenses. After all, they are going to be discharged and not something one would have as an expense going forward.

What district are you in????

[gman]

Really????? Credit card payments are never included in the schedules as expenses. After all, they are going to be discharged and not something one would have as an expense going forward.

What district are you in????

tobee has stated he/she will not disclose his/her district.....which is OK by me because I am a fully believer in privacy.

One question for tobee though:

What LINE on the MEANS TEST did your lawyer include these payments?

[SMinGA]

Personally, I always file federal as soon as we have W2s, etc. But don't rush to file state. We normally end up about even for state. Have not filed this year yet actually - need to print the forms and fill them out I suppose. Just not in a rush for the $10 refund!!

But I know my atty will require we give him copies of federal & state (already filed)...

The only thing in your synopsis that I find odd is that out of 35, no one said they anticipate a tax refund? I would think based on some having EIC or child tax credits, there would be some to get refunds. Even if having none withheld now...

The debtors who showed up without having filed a 2009 Tax Return started off on the wrong foot with the Trustee (see above.)

The only ones who got a "pass" had little (and I mean little) or no income. The ones who had not filed had their cases rescheduled on the spot for a later date.

Simply put: It definitely seemed like having a 2009 tax return filed and given to the Trustee was a "requirement" in the Northern Georgia district.

[SMinGA]

I can understand the logic behind that argument - the means test is about whether or not there is a presumption of abuse. If you're paying the credit cards, it limits your budget and in some situations creates a cycle of charge/pay down/charge again.

But that is just the means test - not schedule J. Or was your atty include there also?

when the trustee's office rec'd our petition they argued that we can't count our cc payments...our atty argued well, then of course who would ever have to file bk if they didn't factor in that amount....somehow he got it counted in, while the trustee's office finally gave in. this ALL happend prior to our 341....by the way.

[tobee43]

i'm rumbling through the paperwork and can't even find the means test...since it was done so long ago...remember we waited almost 2 years to file.

so i can't even locate it...also everything was done electronically....so it's all on pdf files...i have looked and never label it correctly...if i come across it i will let you know which line it was listed on.

Really????? Credit card payments are never included in the schedules as expenses. After all, they are going to be discharged and not something one would have as an expense going forward.

well, let me put this even in a "better" light...we had so many expenses it really didn't even matter. so it was only one fraction of the equation that made our numbers work....as well as an absolutely EXCELLENT atty...(for once!)

[tobee43]

The only thing in your synopsis that I find odd is that out of 35, no one said they anticipate a tax refund?

well, i can't speak for the 35 that gman saw...but..yes, we did indeed have a refund, and it was quite a large amount. we were advised by our atty to spend it immediately which we did...it never came up at the 341...and it was close to 10k

[researchnerd]

Wow...time for an episode of As The World Shrinks. DH and I had our Ch7 341 yesterday in Atlanta -- you must have observed us! We were in the morning session. This was our second 341 so we knew what to expect, and this one was even easier and quicker than the Ch13 hearing.

We are over the median but have negative DMI due to DH's high alimony and my student loans. The Trustee asked our appearance attorney whether he had seen an email from the US Trustee to our attorney requesting additional information. He hadn't, so the Trustee let him look at it for a minute. After the 341, the appearance attorney reported that they have requested bank statements and additional tax returns for a certain time period, but didn't remember what that was. Unfortunately email requests don't show up on PACER, and I've been trying to get specifics from my actual attorney but he hasn't replied yet.

[gman]

i'm rumbling through the paperwork and can't even find the means test...since it was done so long ago...remember we waited almost 2 years to file.

so i can't even locate it...also everything was done electronically....so it's all on pdf files...i have looked and never label it correctly...if i come across it i will let you know which line it was listed on.

If you do happen to find this information, please do post it! It would be HUGE in my situation to make my case a SLAM DUNK, and I'd expect many others would benefit from your specific situation.

I would think your attorney might still have a copy of your entire filing which includes the Means Test OR you can always see your actual electronic filing online (for only 8 cents a page) at PACER.

http://www.pacer.gov/findcase.html

[tobee43]

I would think your attorney might still have a copy of your entire filing which includes the Means Test OR you can always see your actual electronic filing online (for only 8 cents a page) at PACER.

i don't use pacer...but i have a copy of the petition....right here....which line do you want me to check out??