Very confused over this Chapter 13 twist.

[bkfiler]

well, what hes trying to say is what will fly with the court. he should know the court/trustee well enough to know what to do. does that mean he does, no.

i didnt realize the court wouldnt allow for childrens cars, insurance, etc. keep looking into it. try to get an attorney that has good relations with the court too. you can go to the hearings (not 341) and see how the attorney comes across with the people at the court and the judge.


anyways, under the new laws it got stricter. guidlines to follow. keep trying and keep us posted.

[StaciMM]

From the devil's advocate veiwpoint... If you can't pay the bills you have accumulated, you don't need to have 4 cars for 5 people. (Assuming 5 since you said that # of cell phones.)

Your attorney means well. You could file it any way you wanted, but if you list expenses which are higher than the norm, you'll end up sparring with the US Trustee (most likely) and could be forced at that point into a ch. 13 or dismissal. Part of BK is an assessment of your money habits. Spending for things that are unnecessary will not go over well.

[SinkingFast]

See, that's the thing,..........

I printed out a couple of BK's in our town so I'd know what to itemize and what not to itemize. Have a feel for $ amts people claimed and such.

This one BK, the people have $150K in IRA's/Retirements. Doesn't say anything about kids, so I don't know if there are any. They had 4 vehicles, a boat, house, horse trailer. Compared to them we are assetless. No retirement money left. Not gonna have a house. No boat. Just the cars. Those people listed $193/month for auto insurance.

On the other one, several of their expenses were higher than ours, and they listed their cigarettes expense.

I need to find a copy of the new Schedule J and see what can and cannot be listed.

[StaciMM]

Were these cases filed before or after 10/17?

[FoolAndHisMoney]

well, what hes trying to say is what will fly with the court. he should know the court/trustee well enough to know what to do. does that mean he does, no.

i didnt realize the court wouldnt allow for childrens cars, insurance, etc. keep looking into it. try to get an attorney that has good relations with the court too. you can go to the hearings (not 341) and see how the attorney comes across with the people at the court and the judge.


anyways, under the new laws it got stricter. guidlines to follow. keep trying and keep us posted.

It even states it on the means test. No more then 2 cars, 1 per debtor.

[FoolAndHisMoney]

See, that's the thing,..........

I printed out a couple of BK's in our town so I'd know what to itemize and what not to itemize. Have a feel for $ amts people claimed and such.

This one BK, the people have $150K in IRA's/Retirements. Doesn't say anything about kids, so I don't know if there are any. They had 4 vehicles, a boat, house, horse trailer. Compared to them we are assetless. No retirement money left. Not gonna have a house. No boat. Just the cars. Those people listed $193/month for auto insurance.
On the other one, several of their expenses were higher than ours, and they listed their cigarettes expense.

I need to find a copy of the new Schedule J and see what can and cannot be listed.

What was their "total" car expenses? On your expense schedules you pretty much can't go higher then the IRS collection standards. Their insurance may be higher, but their gasoline, tolls, car repairs, car payments may be much less.

[bkfiler]

so, lol. you are going to have to take the entire post into context. im good at teaching context to people if you need a lesson lol.

[SinkingFast]

From the devil's advocate veiwpoint... If you can't pay the bills you have accumulated, you don't need to have 4 cars for 5 people. (Assuming 5 since you said that # of cell phones.)

I know from a previous post that your kids aren't as old as ours.

4 cars sounds like luxury but it's not. I won't even talk about when we had to juggle getting everyone where they needed to be. Sometimes having to ask another parent because we simply could not be in 3 places at one time. We were so relieved when they could drive. And now,....... Son works 32 hours/week and commutes 30 miles each way to school/college full time. Daughters are in swimming right now. 5 am weights, practice or meets after school every day and on Saturdays. One daughter worked before swimming and will go back to work after swimming ends. Other daughter is involved in the HS drama dept and on the Debate team. The cars have already been valued by an attny during a consultation. He uses Edmunds.com because it considers more factors than Kelly's Blue Book does. Son's car is worth $500. The one daughter drives is worth $1000. Hubby's truck is worth $2200. They are old, high mileage vehicles. As in 145000 miles and up high mileage.

And, yes, for expense purposes I do know I can only count 2 on the Means Test. And, no, the BK's I pulled weren't pre 10/17. I looked at pre 10/17's but I pulled post 10/17's for my use.

The people who had a higher insurance premium than the attny last night allowed us also had higher fuel costs than we listed. Their food expense was lower than ours. I have all my grocery receipts since right after Christmas. They claimed $360/mo and we've actually spent $1300. That's grocery receipts. No fast food. No booze. We don't drink. Doesn't include Christmas dinner shopping. I don't know what the attny allowed us last night. He didn't say. Prolly the Fed standard, but that's a guess. The other people claimed $65 for cleaning and the attny allowed us $35.

Cell phones are a safety issue with the kids. In case they break down, have a wreck. Are at school/where ever and need to be picked up. There's not always a public phone or friend's phone available and it has happened. Son's car broke down. Friend that daughter was riding with, her car broke down. Friend's parents weren't home and couldn't get there to help. Not safe in this day and age to just hop out and walk, especially after dark. Before I added them to my cell phone acct, the kids carried Trak Phones. The Trak Phone batteries went after they'd had the phones a couple of years. It was cheaper to add them to my phone than replace the batteries or buy new "Go" phones. We got the phones for free and $10/month is equal to what I spent adding minutes to their Trak Phones. The minutes for pay as you go phones are not cheap and the cards expire in 30/60/90 days. The cards usually expired before the minutes got used up.

Then Hubby had to move for the job. Instead of getting a home phone installed for $45/month, and incurring long distance charges for us to be able to talk, I added a line for him for $10/month.

And of course, once I signed them on, I was stuck. I didn't know a year ago I'd be on this Forum considering BK. The free phones came with a 2 year contract string and I still have another year left on the contract. I already checked into turning them off as a cost reduction method. To turn off the cell phones, it would cost me a $200/line termination fee plus an extra fee I didn't hear due to shock of the $1000 in fees to cancel my contract early.

Line 32 of Schedule J Other Necessary Expenses: Telecommunication services. Enter the average monthly expenses that you actually pay for cell phones, pagers, call waiting, caller identification, special long distance or internet services necessary for the health and welfare of you and your dependents.

I have my bills to prove the expense. If a red flag goes up, all the attny has to do is show copies of the bills. If I can't prove it I ain't gonna claim it.

[bkfiler]

i would say a few thing to keep in mind. one, keep looking for an attorney that knows the courts very well adn can demonstrate that to you in conversations. not just numbers. talk to him about how the trustee is. do they get along. what does he think about the judges. i know this may sound wierd or useless but it helps to listen to what his replies are and see if it is evident that he i sin touch and has a sense of getting what he wants from the court.

also, the things you talk about are living life normal. not on the cheap like one would have to do in a chap 13. fed guidlines are gonna set the pace and they aint pretty i would imagine. however, fight for what can be had and make it work out for your best interest. you will be stuck with it for a very long time if you cant get a chap 7.

[bkbiker]

No. Any additional funds I put in will NOT go toward paying off the balance. The funds will be dispersed to the creditors as extra. You can never pay off the plan early. I now firmly believe that the lawyers and trustees know this full well and have no intention of informing the client.

[StaciMM]

Sinkingfast-I wasn't trying to criticize you. Just giving you something to think about, though it sounds like you have plenty of that already! You ultimately can file with your real expenses & try for a 7-but that does not mean the court has to accept them. Depending on what debts you have, when you accumulated the debt, and what has changed since then, the BK court may decide that you've lived beyond your means w/ the help of credit and decide to NOT grant a 7.

Is there a pressing reason to file ASAP? (Garnishment, etc.?) If not-check back on those cases you pulled in a month or so and see if they get confirmed or discharged. If so, call those attorneys. 1. The atty. you met with might have good intentions and be trying to prepare you for the worst. or 2. He might not be willing to put much fight into 'difficult' cases. Keep in mind also, that within the next month or so-the IRS #'s should be adjusted and hopefully the allowed #'s will increase.

If you have no home phone-then your cell phone bill does not seem out of line. The values of the vehicles are not unreasonable-I am guessing you don't have car payments on the kids vehicles. $1300 groceries for 5, for less than a month, seems extreme-but I don't have to feed teenagers... Is there a Sams Club or Costco near you, where you can buy meat, etc. in larger quantities and save? (Would not be worth bothering unless you had freezer space to store it though...)

By the way-for auto insurance, I don't find $250/mo when you have teenagers on the bill to be bad. When we had full coverage on 2 (financed) vehicles, it was $220 a month-but that was mainly due to my accident.

One other question you may face-since you list expenses for the kids and you indicated they have/had/will have income-is do they cover any of there own expenses. One area I'm not sure of-their income may be factored into your budget.

[SinkingFast]

Thank You Bkbiker And Bkfiler

Quite honestly, I felt some like I was getting nit picked over 2 extra cars and a cell phone bill that's a little too high. Not to mention I already know how many of you feel about cigarette smoking. YES we lived outside our means. Didn't everybody here?? If they didn't they wouldn't be here would they?? We've already lost everything, except the cars, and now it sounds like the Court will want even more.

And excuse me if I'm a little short. We've been living 18 months of HELL. Hubby got laid off. Job hunting. Interviews. Hoping to be able to stay, not necessarily in the same house, but at least the same school district for the girls. Hubby get's new job and has to move right away. Now we have to pay rent, etc, for him in addition to supporting the family in the house. And his absence tore a hole in the fabric of our family. I can't explain it. I know things are better now we are back together, but our family is not what it was a year ago before he left. Having to move the girls from their friends and the school that they loved. They have worked to move on, but that has been an agony for them that has affected us all. And hoping every day that the stinking house outa state would sell cause every month is another house payment, electric bill, and water bill. We had to hire a guy to keep it mowed. $300/month. I was so relieved when mowing season ended. One payment we didn't have to make. But everytime we turn around it's money money money going out and no end in sight.

BKBiker,......... You gave me some info we hadn't even thought about with regards to a 5 year Ch 13 plan. My mother lives with us. She's in renal failure. Her medical insurance, drugs, and doctor's appts pretty much eat up her Social Security each month, but she does have some savings. Hubby's parents are older as well. In fairly good health so far. Even so, there's 2 potential estates we could receive a little monies from. I hadn't even thought about the Trustee taking that or Hubby's life insurance, if God forbid, something happened to him during that time.

[SinkingFast]

We wondered the same thing about the kid's income, Staci. Of course last year, 05, it wasn't much. Daughter made maybe $400 and son made maybe $3000 gross. Daughter couldn't work many hours due to age rules in the old state. She paid for her gas to run around and bought a few pieces of clothes. Swimming started about a month after we got here. Son paid his gas, bought lunches when he couldn't get home, and saved the rest to pay his tuition for this semester. His car needed a couple repairs that we paid for. We paid his tuition/books/fees to start school in the fall. He didn't have enough saved from his job during the fall so we bought his books for the spring semester.

Somebody in another post yesterday gave a little tip about how to net search to see who the Trustees are in your area. I did that and learned an interesting piece of info. Attnys had said on the phone they charge in a range depending on your case. $2500 was the top amount most said. At the website for our BK District I happened to click on a link that took me to links of notices that had been posted. There was a notice to the attnys in this area that the max amt chargeable of $2500 had been raised to $2900.

I think you are right about that attny. He charges a flat $1K plus filing costs. He boasted he does the most BK's in town. If he can legally charge more and doesn't then he makes his money in volume. With his "The Court" comments, we fig'd he'd just presents what is easy and he knows will go thru. That he's not a fighter. His clients are cattle and all look alike to him was the feeling I got. Excuse me, but I wouldn't have to pay him or anybody $1K. I could fill out the paperwork myself, or hire one of those companies that will do it electronically for a small fee. I'm looking for an attny who will represent MY interests, not the Court.

Funny about the phone. We didn't have a home phone for a couple months when we first moved here. We were gonna try it without one and see if we'd even need it. But,....... My cell phone still has the old area code and orig number. That's for the REA's to contact us w/o a long distance call. We got into a couple of situations where the girls needed to call me using a school phone and couldn't because it's a long distance call. Son had that happen as well. Be in school or at work, can't have phone at either so it's out in the car, and need to call home for something. So we decided to get a home phone. Now that we are letting the house go, I can change my phone over to a local number, and let the home phone go. I don't really like Verizon anyway.

[Minnymouth]

There's LOT OF THINGS to consider when filing bankruptcy. It should not be done as a quick fix or easy way out......

It should take considerable thought and planning.

I thought, I planned, and I still got screwed over the title on my home....... (thanks to my attorney).....

Yes, when you file bankruptcy ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING you own or might inherit becomes at risk for the Trustee to take to satisfy creditors......

This includes,

Insurance policies, retirement pensions that are not exempt, inheritances, IRA that are not exempt, income tax refunds, etc......

No one WANTS TO LOOSE what they have, but often we may have to give up part of what we do have to benefit from bankruptcy.......... sometimes its TAKEN FROM US thru no actions of our own....

I caution all of you that file, bankrutpcy is not a SURE THING in its results or plans of outcome...... Laws change, events change, and unforeseen things happen (like unperfected titles) change the whole outcome of your bankruptcy............

AND BELIEVE ME - if your attorney says "don't worry - EVERYTHING WILL BE ALL RIGHT" - always be prepared for the un-expected.....

Most bankruptcy's (chapter 7's) are clean and simple... no problems...... Most Chapter 13's fail for one reason or another......(and the debtor ends up filing a Chapter 7 later).....

But ALWAYS be ready for the unexpected surprises that might happen in bankruptcy.....

Hopefully, NONE OF YOU will ever experience the unknown surprises that can pop up.....

[StaciMM]

Well, if you don't like your cell plan and are filing BK-you can get a new plan, if there is something better for you, and the old will go into the BK.