staring to think Chapter 13 is just a big scam.

[espo1357]

Court protection?

Wow.

It makes sense if you have assets that are worth keeping, but otherwise, it is not a good play.

I am finally seeing that now.

At times, I want to quit my "just over the median" job, so I can convert to a 7and end it.

In fact, I might do that.

To sum up, Chapter 13 is a scam. Its like the creditors and courts are the mob and we have to pay them for the protection that is not even worth it.

Ok, thanks for letting me vent.

[tigergem]

Wow, what happened? I'm pretty much "ok" with my plan. Ticking down the months, and what have you, is a pain. (I was thinking the other day...hey I've done 2/3 of 20% of my time, lol!) Making certain decisions based on whether or not it is worth having to answer to the Trustee is kind of a pain. I'm proud of my budget, but I'm also sick of looking at it. But a scam? Nah. Of course, I've made out pretty decently so far. I think I got a really good "bargain" on my debt pay off. I'm sorry you seem to be having such a bad experience, though.

[Flamingo]

It's a shame for you to have to file Chapter 13 because you can afford to pay back part of your debts and then want to switch to a Chapter 7 becase you think Chapter 13 is a "scam." Well, if you do that, for the next 7 years you will have two BK's showing on your credit reports witih the Chapter 7 staying on for 10 years after you make that switch.

[newbie2]

Court protection?

Wow.

It makes sense if you have assets that are worth keeping, but otherwise, it is not a good play.

I am finally seeing that now.

At times, I want to quit my "just over the median" job, so I can convert to a 7and end it.

In fact, I might do that.

To sum up, Chapter 13 is a scam. Its like the creditors and courts are the mob and we have to pay them for the protection that is not even worth it.

Ok, thanks for letting me vent.

Chapter 13 is voluntary. No one is ever forced to enter the plan. Also, out of curiosity, how much debt are you planning on discharging if you complete the plan?

[HHM]

What is the alternative. Constant collection, dropping off the grid, lawsuits...etc.

Chapter 13 is about control. You find me another solution that allows YOU to dictate to your creditors how much you will pay back. Granted, chapter 13 is not chapter 7, but hey, not everyone qualifies for chapter 7. Also, to be honest, the 2005 amendments haven't really changed the ratios of chapter 13 vs chapter 7 filings. The further we get from 2005, the more the MYTH grows that many people are chapter 13 that would have been chapter 7 under the old law, that has not really panned out.

[NoTomatoCan]

CH13 is a pain in the rear, for sure, but I wouldn't call it a scam. Collectively my wife and I will be at between 10%-20% payback to unsecured. No other way we were getting that deal wihtout having a a lot of luck and a very large chunk of cash to offer on the spot to hungry creditors!

For two adults that have been able to pretty much do what they want, when they want to, adjusting to this lifestyle has been challenging, but has brought about some good habits. We have a very tough trustee, but are still looking at a plan that will allow us to live a decent life. 5 years sucks, but it will be over before you know it.

I will say this... For folks who are pretty much "settled" - stable house, stable job, stable family life - Chapter 13 seems like an easier road. The fewer major life events you have during your plan, the easier it sounds like it will be. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit where everyone is in their life. Chapter 13 is still doable, even with major changes - as many on this board are strong testaments to. It just means more work.

[Pandora]

I agree with everyone else's sentiments - CH. 13 is what you make of it and its certainly not a scam. You (OP) have been posting this very same thing in several other areas in other peoples postings and you know - if those people are anything like most of us filing BK - they're probably worried enough as it is and dont need you bringing down the curtain. Just sayin' ... Then on the other hand, you're posting praises and throwing flowers about how "responsible it is" to file BK and how glad you are you did it.... ?? So which is it - are you pissed or happy about it?

If you planned well enough in your budget and your lawyer was good enough to do his/her job - CH. 13 will be no more painful than having a car payment (or 2) for those 3-5 years in my opinion. Thats how we are looking at it - its a car payment and we're going to save A LOT of money at the end

I'm sorry you feel the way you do re: your 13 - but please dont bring that same sentiment to everyone else's posts like you're doing. Yours is just ONE experience out of many.

[Morgon64]

Espo -

I'm not sure how you got into this mess - that knowledge would really help me decide how to respond.

I also filed Ch 13, in 2006. My "character fault" is that I continue to involve myself with men that have no self control with money, and I am (was) too wimpy to do things like make myself make my husband take back the $20,000 truck he bought when he was angry at me. We were already barely making ends meet. I have to take responsibility for my (in)action.

Ch 13 was a Godsend to me, even though it was irritating to deal with a trustee that seemed hellbent on making our life a complete misery. Countrywide Home Loans had initiated foreclosure when we were less than 90 days late. I actually thought we were less than 60 days late (I was waiting on our tax check to send in and get caught up), because I had made a partial payment one month and thought it was applied, but turns out they just hold $$ unless it is a full payment. Before I knew it, tack on attorney fees, etc, and instead of being able to pay $1500 and be all caught up, I owed $5000. No can do.

I have $100,000 + equity in my home, which essentially is everything I have as far as equity. Losing that would have been devastating. Chapter 13 was the only way I could call off the hounds and not worry about being on the street. We would have easily qualified for Ch 7 but there would have been no protection against the foreclosure.

(An aside: Countrywide went bankrupt not long after HA HA)

Point is, for some people, Ch 13 is awesome.

We live WAYYY under the median and actually survive reasonably well, but we are both good at fixing things ourself, we never buy new stuff, and we pay cash for everything now.

How is it that you have just over a median income and can't do it? Did you have some equally bad luck, or are you like my husband (was) and just can't seem to get the hang of budgeting? My husband (thank God he has a learning curve) was a moron when it came to money. Want a soda? Stop at the Jiffy (not that you just left the house and there was soda there) and buy one for nearly $2 with the credit card he took out of my wallet. What? That $2 soda overlimited us and now it's a $42 soda? Oh, well, the wife pays the bills. She can deal with it.

Point being, what category are you in? I know times are tough - did you have to take a job that pays less than what you were making before? Husband/ Wife (or Ex) is a nightmare spender? What? After all, YOU entered into contracts with these creditors initially. What was the motivation there, desperation or simple lack of self control?

[andy158]

I agree that being close to the drop off for income to go bk7 would suck. But as stated earlier, bk13 is working for most of us here. We are paying all our assest (sans one car) outside our bk. The plan payments are almost $1,000 less per month than what we were paying to just cc's. That is a real bargain for us. If the cc's would have worked with us a little bit they would be getting a lot more payback. Now we are discharging about $35k in cc's alone. Yeah we had to surrender some "luxury" items (boat and motorcycle), but there will always be nice used toys for sale that will be paid for in cash after our bk is done.

We all have been forced to budget and manage our money more wisely. The consumer counseling that I thought was just bs really opened up our eyes. Many good lessons learned so far. I still can not believe that in four more years the only "debt" will be a house payment and normal living expenses. Wow what a relief! A "scam" no. A hassle yes, but one we can live with for four more years and no one outside our family will know the better.

[momofthree]

How is it that you have just over a median income and can't do it? Did you have some equally bad luck, or are you like my husband (was) and just can't seem to get the hang of budgeting? My husband (thank God he has a learning curve) was a moron when it came to money. Want a soda? Stop at the Jiffy (not that you just left the house and there was soda there) and buy one for nearly $2 with the credit card he took out of my wallet. What? That $2 soda overlimited us and now it's a $42 soda? Oh, well, the wife pays the bills. She can deal with it.

OMG. You made me lol. You just described my hubby to a T. He's struggling with the bankruptcy and still throwing toddler temper tantrums when he can't buy something that he wants the second he wants it. I'm loving the bankruptcy--I'm the saver of the family. We have everything that we need and even a bit of savings (carefully hidden from dh). I hope he eventually learns something out of this like your hubby did. Any tips on helping him along?

[espo1357]

Espo -

I'm not sure how you got into this mess - that knowledge would really help me decide how to respond.

I also filed Ch 13, in 2006. My "character fault" is that I continue to involve myself with men that have no self control with money, and I am (was) too wimpy to do things like make myself make my husband take back the $20,000 truck he bought when he was angry at me. We were already barely making ends meet. I have to take responsibility for my (in)action.

Ch 13 was a Godsend to me, even though it was irritating to deal with a trustee that seemed hellbent on making our life a complete misery. Countrywide Home Loans had initiated foreclosure when we were less than 90 days late. I actually thought we were less than 60 days late (I was waiting on our tax check to send in and get caught up), because I had made a partial payment one month and thought it was applied, but turns out they just hold $$ unless it is a full payment. Before I knew it, tack on attorney fees, etc, and instead of being able to pay $1500 and be all caught up, I owed $5000. No can do.

I have $100,000 + equity in my home, which essentially is everything I have as far as equity. Losing that would have been devastating. Chapter 13 was the only way I could call off the hounds and not worry about being on the street. We would have easily qualified for Ch 7 but there would have been no protection against the foreclosure.

(An aside: Countrywide went bankrupt not long after HA HA)

Point is, for some people, Ch 13 is awesome.

We live WAYYY under the median and actually survive reasonably well, but we are both good at fixing things ourself, we never buy new stuff, and we pay cash for everything now.

How is it that you have just over a median income and can't do it? Did you have some equally bad luck, or are you like my husband (was) and just can't seem to get the hang of budgeting? My husband (thank God he has a learning curve) was a moron when it came to money. Want a soda? Stop at the Jiffy (not that you just left the house and there was soda there) and buy one for nearly $2 with the credit card he took out of my wallet. What? That $2 soda overlimited us and now it's a $42 soda? Oh, well, the wife pays the bills. She can deal with it.

Point being, what category are you in? I know times are tough - did you have to take a job that pays less than what you were making before? Husband/ Wife (or Ex) is a nightmare spender? What? After all, YOU entered into contracts with these creditors initially. What was the motivation there, desperation or simple lack of self control?

Thanks for all the responses.

1. Bought a home at the peak, and lost 50% plus in equity in only a few years.

2. Took a 50% pay cut from the time I bought the home. So, income is way down, and the current job is so much worse than the job I had when I bought the home.

2. Had no cc debt when I bought the home, but used some cc unwisely (my fault) to keep up with the home when I lost my job. Bad move.
Now, I have a job that is going nowhere and a career that is going nowhere (not going to get into details on that), and just don't see a way out of this, especially with a home that is way under.

3. Now that I am thinking of going back to school and thinking of moving to a better job market city, I feel that I have no flexability in doing so, because of this BK. I know I have options, I just don't know how to sort it all out.

4. My main beef is that the 13 should be used to protect assets, and my home is not an asset since it is way under. This home is becoming a chain. However, if I short sell, I will still be paying about the same as renting. And since I am so under, I am "renting" anyway.

On the bright side, this has been a great learning experience....

it just doesn't seem right to have to "feel" that I have no options on this, when I clearly do.

I appreciate all the responses here, as it helps me think about some options, and things to consider before making a move to go back to school, and convert to a 7 OR whether or not is makes sense to walk from a home that is 30% plus underwater.

[Morgon64]

Mom - All I know is what worked here. Luckily, husband does have a strong sense of morals, and when he was able to mentally connect his wasteful habits with just plain selfishness, he was able to change his behavior. Not that it happened overnight, but I can now give him the debit card for one purchase, forget to take it right back, and trust that there won't be about 10 overdraft fees the day after because he "needed" ten other things on the way home. Never mind that there was only $20 in the account to begin with.

It actually took change on both of our parts. I was also to blame in that I really resented being put in the position of "mommy" with the finances, so I wouldn't do what had to be done. Like take that %*$#! truck back.

My Ex-husband is very good with money, and I hated treating the current one like a kid. Truth is, he just didn't have a clue. He was in the Army before I met him, and he had never paid rent (for any length of time) or had to worry about where the food was coming from. Shoulda been a red flag to me that he got out without having saved the first smidgen of money. When almost everything is paid for, wouldn't that be a given?

Since he seemed to be a normal, functioning, moral person in general otherwise, I just had to realize this was an anomaly. If he had other really bad traits or didn't look sufficiently pained when the overdraft(s) hit the fan, I may have given up.

First off, I had to ask if he was worth it. Either decide to step up or get off the horse. I decided he was worth saving. Then I admitted that I had to take over. Stop giving him rope to hang himself. Don't leave the cards where he could even get to them. Take his name OFF the bank account. He's leaving the house? Send him off with a soda and enough cash (usually $5) that I was willing to write off, since I'll never see it again. Ignore the tantrums (actually with mine it was more along the lines of biting, sarcastic commentary and a black mood). If he was going to Annual Training for two weeks, (Guard), give him enough cash to get by, NOT a card of any type.

Second was learning to talk to him in a reasonable tone of voice. I'm a reactor. I had zero ability to take a cool off period. I'd see the overdraft or the whatever new thing he bought and that was all it took. Attack mode. (Once he took the last $100 we had for the next week and bought hunting supplies. It wasn't even hunting season. WHA?)

Men (or anyone for that matter) don't tend to listen to ranting. I had to MAKE myself calm down before I approached him. Also remind myself that as important as money is, it's not worth a stroke or a domestic violence charge. Also learn what I need to do differently. What loophole did I give him?

He was also the see it, want it, buy it kind of person. Nevermind if "it" was a bad deal. Watching me get all sorts of great deals just because I have self control to wait for something seemed to make a difference. I got a $3000 car on Ebay for $1000 because I waited months to find the best deal I could. We needed a ladder the other day. Instead of running out and getting the $80 one at Home Depot, I waited a week until I found a $10 one on Craigslist. Now he tells me what he wants because "...I know you are good at finding things". Right. That's one thing I can bring to the table here. He can continue to fix the cars, I'm not nearly as good at that.

Anyway, when I switched from T Rex to level minded problem solverr, he responded much better. I took more of a teaching position. He even said to me the other day that he just hadn't realized how selfish he was being. Yay!

Don't give up hope. If your guy is mature underneath it all, he'll find a way to earn his way out of being treated like a kid. Who wants that? You also now have the added benefit of the big bad trustee standing right behind you, Lol!

[SMinGA]

Espo, if the home is a loss, why fight it when you could just let it go? Contact your attorney about adjusting your petition to let the house go. First step is a phone call. (To set up an appointment, that is... You'll want a face to face appointment most likely.)

[Morgon64]

Espo-

Ah, the good old underwater mortgage. You're not alone there, ya gots lots and lots o' company.

Sometimes life does really back you into a corner, and it ain't pretty. What you do is completely up to you, of course. What you need is some pre-hindsight, haha. If you do short sell, Ch 7 it, relocate and/or get back in school you may get a better job and things may start looking up.

In a couple years with no debt, your credit won't be as bad as all that. Especially if you are young(er) you have time to start building again.

Obviously, no decision IS a decision. My advice? Do a lot of research, get peoples' opinions (your attorney?), make your decision, take a breath, dive in and don't look back. The shoulda wouldas will kill you.

Good luck.

[momofthree]

Thanks for the advice, Morgan. I've taken away his atm card and that helps, but I know he feels emasculated on a regular basis and I hate that I make him feel that way, but I have very little choice in the matter. The worst are his "mommy" comments. "Can I have $5, MOMMY?!"

I read that Submissive Wife book several years back and decided to give it a go. I really began to treat him more respectfully and we were both very happy. Unfortunately, to follow her book completely, you hand over complete financial control to your husband. Supposedly, this boosts his ego and makes his family mindset come into play and she guarantees you that he will step up to the plate, make reasonable decisions and will not take your family into bankruptcy. (teehee).

Well, 4 months later, he had blown thru a $6000 tax refund (I did ask for $600 to buy a new carseat and a Dyson vacuum--a huge splurge for me) and he had taken out a $7000 personal loan without my knowledge. We had been 100% debt free aside from our mortgage when I handed the bank account over to him. That's right, he blew thru $13k in a few short months! It was a wake-up call for both of us. He actually did admit at that point that he simply does not have the ability to make wise financial decisions, but admitting the problem hasn't changed his attitude at all... He throws fits, refuses to talk to me for weeks at a time, and is just generally a douche when he wants something, and he tends to wear me down until I finally just say "fine, clearly you're not going to put our marriage first, so I will. I will not ruin our marriage over this stupid material possession, so go buy it." And he does! A week later (maybe a month) he's over it and onto the next thing. Well, now we're in bankruptcy and I'm hearing "mommy" a lot less, but yeah. It's not easy for him AT ALL!