Chase objects to Dischargeability

[Vikingfan]

Is Chase the only one who does this?

Or will any of the cc companies do this? Do they go by the last 6 billing statements or by 6 months from the exact date of bal transfer?

Im probably in the same boat as the original poster but with a different cc.I was going to file after 4 1/2 mo from bal transfer, I guess i need to hang on now another 2 months.

[keepmine]

Without more info, I think this is probably a 60/40 case, we still don't know the amounts involved. But the main problem is timing, this person did a balance transfer and within 4 months, filed BK. Even with a job loss, most people can usually get by for more than 4 months without having to declare BK. If not, that means that even without the job loss, this couple was in over their head in debt and Chase still has a good argument that they could not have reasonably expected to pay back this debt.

Just to flesh out HHM's thoughts a bit: My attorney explained it like this. The argument a creditor will make on activity over 90 days is, the date you chose to file is spurious. You knew that the burden of proof shifted to the creditor after 90 days and you intentionally waited to file. They'll try and support that claim by asking when you first spoke with an attorney about bk and draw an inference that the lawyer told you to wait,etc.
Now then, there comes a point where that argument just won't work and that appears to be at the 6 month mark. My lawyer {who has been doing bl's since the 80"s} said that he had never lost a challenge where there had been at least 6 months between filing and cc use. He also said he'd never had a challenge when there had been at least a year beteen filing an cc activity. Patience is your best friend sometimes.
Myself, I had 7 months between filing and any cc activity and it had been 11 months since my last BT. I had no creditor objections and I had 4 Chase accounts.

[keepmine]

They don't get the petition, only a filing notice. Also- what is the big deal with a balance transfer? That would seem to me a wsie move for anyone it is offered to- I do it myself every time I can, so why does that indicate finacial distress? If a person WAS contemplating filing bankrupcty- then why would they even bother with a balance transfer?

They have access to Pacer. They can see every document filed.

[kcj]

I think Chase has a whole new department devoted to getting money out of bankruptcies. We had to deal with them with our Circuit City card a few months ago.
I will stay far far away from them for the rest of my life.

[CATCHMEIFYOUCAN]

I guess this is an unlucky draw for the debtor. I had a Chevy Chase overdraft account for $500, a Chevy Chase Credit Card for $5000 AND a "Chase," Credit Card for $2500. I had opened these accounts prior to 6 months before filing. Being a heavy gambler I maxed them out in no time, however, I was paying the monthly payments up until the time I filed - even my so called "cash advances looked like heavy duty grocerie bills.
Guess I slipped under the BK radar as one lawyer put it.
They didn't wink an eye, however, when I told them I was filing for BK when I was trying to negotiate a settlement just before I decided to file - one rep told me I couldn't even file because I just opened those accounts, little did she know. I've been discharged since Jan 26, 2007. My not partying yet til' my case CLOSES, you know!

Best wishes, Catchmeifyoucan

[HHM]

Without more info, I think this is probably a 60/40 case, we still don't know the amounts involved. But the main problem is timing, this person did a balance transfer and within 4 months, filed BK. Even with a job loss, most people can usually get by for more than 4 months without having to declare BK. If not, that means that even without the job loss, this couple was in over their head in debt and Chase still has a good argument that they could not have reasonably expected to pay back this debt.

I am a little surprised there was no prior contact between Chase's attorney and your attorney (maybe Chase was slow in placing the account). But some inside info for you, Chase typically authorizes their attorney's to accept as low as 50% of the balance owed in the form of a reaffirmation agreement without having to double check with Chase.

I am not intentionally trying to be pessimistic, but you do need to realize how serious this can be. Ultimately, only your attorney can guide you through this process...but many BK attorney's only churn and burn petitions...most BK attorney's rarely litigate these matters.

Objectively speaking, the problem is not with balance transfers, per se, when you are offered a lower interest rate and if it is a no fee transfer, it can be a good move; but the problem is with timing. If you do a balance transfer within 6 months of filing BK, it tends to be too little too late, you are already too financially distressed and the creditor has a good argument claiming that they should not bear the burden of the debtors poor financial management vis-a-vis the debtors other creditors.

[JollyGG]

Was the balance transfer for a lower interest rate?
Ask your lawyer about his opinion as to your best options. We chose a lawyer with 30 years bankruptcy experience and he guides us pretty accurately. He seemed to think that a balance transfer would get an objection but that as ours was for a 0% interest rate it would be easy to defend. But that is of course only his experience in our area.
As for lawyers fees your lawyer can request that Chase pay his fees if you win pursuant to 11 U.S.C. 523(d). However, if you loose you are on the hook for the Chase bill and your lawyers fees.
You will have to weigh your own options and choices as to weather or not you try to reach a settlement or if you fight the objection.

[SamanthaJones]

How would Chase know your employment status?

They don't get the petition, only a filing notice. Also- what is the big deal with a balance transfer? That would seem to me a wsie move for anyone it is offered to- I do it myself every time I can, so why does that indicate finacial distress? If a person WAS contemplating filing bankrupcty- then why would they even bother with a balance transfer?

[cschon911]

Chase

objected to our debt with them . It was around 1,000. We are paying
it back in monthly payments. (we were chapter 7 no asset case) You could fight it, but it probably won't do any good. It would cost alot of money for your lawyer to spend that kind of time in court with them. They are VERY persistant (chase) We used a chase credit card to buy food, gas and perscriptions. It dosen't matter what you used your card to charge, if it was within a certain time frame of filing bankruptcy, they pretty much automatically win.

[SinkingFast]

My contract with my attorney said the fee included defending objections to discharge. Probably is a lawyer by lawyer basis.... If it cost an extra 200 bucks, it might be worth it if the outcome is in your favor though.

Could be different when you pay a Ch 13 filing fee. Ch 7, our "contract" was for filing the BK and appearance with us at the 341. Beyond that, Objections and Adversarials were at the attny's billable rate. Our attny charges $300/hr for Objections and $2K up front to even start an adversarial.


GawVA,................

Did Chase at any point attempt a negotiation with your attny prior to filing the Objection??!!

The reason I ask is,............. Others posting here have negotiated settlements with CC's. The CC contacted their attny prior to filing any Official Objection with the Court. Attny and CC's talked back and forth and came to an agreement.

If Chase didn't approach your attny before filing the Objection, Chase is probably prepared to play hardball.

[aa06a47]

"Also realize, you will have to pay your attorney much more money to defend you, defending objections to discharge are not part of the standard BK package. "


$200-$250 an hour over here.

My contract with my attorney said the fee included defending objections to discharge. Probably is a lawyer by lawyer basis.... If it cost an extra 200 bucks, it might be worth it if the outcome is in your favor though.

[aa06a47]

If you had a job loss AFTER you did the balance transfers, then in my opinion, they will have a very difficult time proving the debt is not dischargable. The burdon of proof is on them, and if you can demonstrate you were able to pay prior to the job loss, then Chase will probably be SOL. Good luck with it and keep us posted. By all means though, be very prepared to defend anything you say and your attorney should be able to prepare you to answer the qeustions.

[Spartan]

"Also realize, you will have to pay your attorney much more money to defend you, defending objections to discharge are not part of the standard BK package. "


$200-$250 an hour over here.

[HHM]

Balance transfer (i..e consolidations) just before BK (Generally within 6 months of filing BK) are pretty much text book cases for objection to discharge by creditors.

Look at it this way, the presumptive period for fraud is 90/70 days, any charge for non-necessities and any cash advance within 90/70 days respectively is considered fraudulent and nondischargeable, you are going to have to convince a judge that you went from "every thing is fine" to "total BK disaster" in 35 days. (i.e. 125-90=35). That may be fairly difficult. Granted, the burden of proof is on the creditor to prove that you had no reasonable expectation of paying back this debt, and usually, people who do balance transfers are in some form of financial stress. But, at the same time, it is not that difficult a fact for a creditor to prove.

Typically what happens is that you can negotiate a reaffirmation agreement with Chase in that they will accept a lesser amount (maybe 40-50% of the balance due) in exchange for not having to go to court to prosecute the objection. Also realize, you will have to pay your attorney much more money to defend you, defending objections to discharge are not part of the standard BK package.

In any event, your BK attorney will probably at least give you some guidance on what your chances are and your possible options. I hope it works out in your favor, good luck.

[GawVa]

125 days prior to filing we consolidates onto a chase credit card and no we
had no idea about a bankruptcy.

My wife was working at the time, bankruptcy came due to loss of income
we already had to prove to the trustees that we are not a case of abuse
because we was a bit over on the means test, do you think that will help any
having that documented and scrutinzed the way they did ?