Chase objects to Dischargeability

[SinkingFast]

It was often posted on the Forum here when I first joined that BK attnys maintain logs of Consultations. Whether that's true or urban legend,......... I don't know.

From a business standpoint, I could see where an attny would maintain a record of their hours and such. Worked on this client's case from 8-9 am. Went to Courthouse for 341 Meetings for X, Y, Z clients, 9 am to Noon. Lunch, Noon to 1 pm. Consulted with Mr. and Mrs Smith from 1-2 pm. etc, etc, etc.

The older filers here when I first joined also said,........... You, as a filer, committed to filing BK the minute you paid an attny any money. A retainer started the BK clock.

For us,........... We finally sat down with all the CC bills, paychecks, monthly bills, and looked at where we were. I kinda sorta researched Credit Counseling and BK online. I learned we'd have to do Credit Counseling as part of BK filing. We decided to get a review of our finances by a DOJ approved Credit Counselor to see where we were. Could we turn things around??!!

The Credit Counselor figured a DMP. Payments were the same as our minimums, which we couldn't pay. The Counselor also gave us 3 recommendations.

Talk to our Mortgage Lender. See if we could work out something with them.

Talk to our Auto Loan Lender and work out some sort of arrangement with them.

Seek Legal Counsel.

We weren't paying our house payments. We'd moved so being evicted in a Foreclosure wasn't a concern anyway. We did contact our Mortgage Lender but they wouldn't budge.

Our car payment was relatively small. $250/mo and we were current. So we didn't mess with that.

We didn't have the money to keep paying the CC minimums, so we quit using our CC's and quit making payments.

We started scheduling Consult appointments with attnys.

Other people have posted here that they stayed current on their CC payments right up to filing day. Some people paid all or part for a few months before they quit paying. Waited a few more months and then filed. Some people quit paying their CC's and waited years before filing.

There is really no "One Size Fits All" answer to give you. Pretty much,......... You've got to do what you can and need to do.

[keepmine]

IMO, the instant that bk is a viable course of action in your mind, you should cease all credit card use.
Once you have seen a lawyer and decide to file, the lawyer will very likely advise you to layoff the cards.
I think you're way overthinking this thing. It's pretty simple-don't give your creditor a reason to challenge your filing.The way you do this is curb your credit card use in the months leading up to filing. Don't do bt's or use the cards if it's avoidable. Wait 6 months + from last use and file.
Very few bk's have any objections filed. HHM is just pointing out a potential line of questioning should a creditor file for an adverserial hearing.

[debitdork]

Geesh now I am really confused.
There seems to be a lot of conflicting advice regarding these issues - especially the "consult a lawyer" issue. That seems to be the first piece of advice given by those who have been there and seems to be good, but if the date I visit an attorney is going to be held against me by creditors in regard to my last card use/payments made - I don't know if I want to see one until the day before I can afford one to hire. This is also very tricky if I take into consideration that a lot of the experienced filers here have said that patience is the best approach as well.

Should one stop using their CCs, be patient _then_ consult with a lawyer?
or
Should one consult with a lawyer - then do what he says? That had been my plan, but now I am terrified. Do consultations with lawyers you do not retain count?!

THIS also scares me -
(Quoting HHM )

It's the first time you consult with a lawyer. Also, some creditor attorneys are getting smart and asking people at their 341 meetings or at 2004 exams what websites they have visited, (i.e. like this one), etc to help establish the fact that the debtor is intentionally evading the presumption period.

Woah. I have been looking into BK info for a few months now because I did not know _anything_ about BK other than what had happened to me when playing Monopoly.

Also, does the balance transfer amount matter at all? What if you were merely using one BT check to pay minimum on one card to pay another? I can see how they might see this as fraud, but in my case I have been doing it just in the hope of not having to BK and leave everyone unpaid. Poor financial decision - I know- but if I had sound financial reasoning I would not be here to begin with, right? I did not see this as potantial fraud becasue I had NOT been looking into the information. (And judging from what HHM said they didn't want me to be looking into it)

I guess my bottom line is - what order is best to do? Who / what first?
Am I already too late by being here to begin with?

[GoingDown]

Just to flesh out HHM's thoughts a bit: My attorney explained it like this. The argument a creditor will make on activity over 90 days is, the date you chose to file is spurious. You knew that the burden of proof shifted to the creditor after 90 days and you intentionally waited to file. They'll try and support that claim by asking when you first spoke with an attorney about bk and draw an inference that the lawyer told you to wait,etc.
Now then, there comes a point where that argument just won't work and that appears to be at the 6 month mark. My lawyer {who has been doing bl's since the 80"s} said that he had never lost a challenge where there had been at least 6 months between filing and cc use. He also said he'd never had a challenge when there had been at least a year beteen filing an cc activity. Patience is your best friend sometimes.
Myself, I had 7 months between filing and any cc activity and it had been 11 months since my last BT. I had no creditor objections and I had 4 Chase accounts.

This is good advice.

Sometimes debtors are in too much of a hurry to file bk, usually because they fear the nasty consequences of judgments-- wage garnishment, bank levy, and real estate liens.

But, in most cases, creditors will not file a lawsuit against you until a year or so after you have stopped making payments. And if you file motions and answer the lawsuit in a timely manner you can delay the judgment for at least several months, giving yourself plenty of time to file bk and stop the lawsuit dead in its tracks, long before they can garnish your wages or put a lien on your house.

And as most people seem to indicate on this forum, after a year you probably won't have to battle any creditors at all during your bk. I think waiting longer is worth it.

[HHM]

I hope you fair well. Please come back and let us know how it went so we can all benefit from your experience.

Remember, all we can do in this forum is speculate about any specific circumstance. We never have all the facts of anyone's particular circumstances when we are responding to posts.

Good luck.

[GawVa]

Called out attorney today , he said no problem in his opinion and he is filing paper work to meet them in court. He did not see how they can prove we
did anything fraudulent.
My wife is out of work due to medical problems that are documented and the income will not return and the balance transfers where done while she was working and prior to 90 days.
Some post had ask about when we first consultes our attorney , one week prior to filing.

[SinkingFast]

This Chase thing is weird...as you know my discharge was last Feb....just paid off trustee to keep my SUV and yesterday there was something on pacer filed by my trustee to Chase...an objection to them...with feb. 28th as cut off...it's like what the heck is Chase coming after me for?

I hadn't used the card since 2001!!!! THey must have gotten flooded with a lot of bks is all I can imagine?

I have to think there's some validity to that point.

The CC Industry as a whole, paid boo koo bucks Lobbying Congress to push this BK Law Reform. And who wound up at the bottom of the heap for payback?? The CC Industry. They landed right where they started. Before they spent the money.

The New Law favors Secureds. They are all but protected. And Priority Debts. Mainly the IRS and Student Loans, but also child support payments and such. And CC's fell dead last in the list as to who gets paid what, when.

So all their big bucks bought them Nothing! Zip! Zilcho! Nada!

And maybe now, after testing the waters under the New Law for a year or so, the CC's are fighting back.

[JollyGG]

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

As I mentioned each individual has unique circumstances, a different district (different judges and trustees), and different needs.
In our case the 0% balance transfer was not a big deal as it was only $2500 and we had made 2-3 payments to that card since.
Yes they sent a letter to my laywer but they never actually objected.
I'm assuming my lawyer was familiar with how this issue has been handled in the past in my district. I also knew that our lawyer was one who was willing to fight for his clients. That's why I chose him.
That does not mean the issue would be the same with a different lender, differnt lawyer, different district, different amount of debt.
We took a risk and it paid off for us. It would not necessarily work out the same for everyone. Which is why each person needs to weigh their individual circumstances.

[HHM]

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

It's the first time you consult with a lawyer. Also, some creditor attorneys are getting smart and asking people at their 341 meetings or at 2004 exams what websites they have visited, (i.e. like this one), etc to help establish the fact that the debtor is intentionally evading the presumption period.

[keepmine]

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

If the question is, "when did you first consult an attorney regarding bk"_the answer is obvious-your intial consultation.
A BT for a 0% interest rate to replace a balance on a card that charged interest can sure be argued as a prudent financial move. The motive was to pay less interest some more money could be used to pay down the princile of the debt.

[HHM]

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.

No one is saying Balance Transfers are "wrong", but doing balance transfers within 6 months of filing BK, will probably cause problems for the BK (namely, the creditor left holding the bag will object). On a side note, frequent balance transfers are not good for your credit rating either.

My point about getting by for 4 months is that most people don't go from financial balance to Bankruptcy in four months. It generally takes people much longer to get to BK. However, what does happen is that the person will "already" be in financial distress...and then an event happens that pushes them over the edge. That seems to be what happened here. Also, in my experience, most peoples first instinct upon losing a job is NOT to file BK, they tend to make it work and can generally go for quite a few months, even if that means living off of credit cards.

All I am saying is, that if you start loading up all these circumstances in a court room, the debtor doesn't come out looking so good. And as keepmine has eloquently pointed out, the original poster did a BT only 35 days before the presumption period, that tends to look specious.

[keepmine]

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.

It's called, "robbing Peter to pay Paul". Many of us used cc's and cash advances and BT's to stay afloat and buy some time and the interest rate was not a consideration.
If you're on the cusp of bk, you better take a long look at any sort of cc activity within the last 6 months. You can argue this stuff here until you're blue in the face and we won't charge you a penny. You argue that in front of an adverserial hearing and the lawyers meter{s} start running.
There is theory and then, there is cold hard reality.

[Vikingfan]

Just to flesh out HHM's thoughts a bit: My attorney explained it like this. The argument a creditor will make on activity over 90 days is, the date you chose to file is spurious. You knew that the burden of proof shifted to the creditor after 90 days and you intentionally waited to file. They'll try and support that claim by asking when you first spoke with an attorney about bk and draw an inference that the lawyer told you to wait,etc.
Now then, there comes a point where that argument just won't work and that appears to be at the 6 month mark. My lawyer {who has been doing bl's since the 80"s} said that he had never lost a challenge where there had been at least 6 months between filing and cc use. He also said he'd never had a challenge when there had been at least a year beteen filing an cc activity. Patience is your best friend sometimes.
Myself, I had 7 months between filing and any cc activity and it had been 11 months since my last BT. I had no creditor objections and I had 4 Chase accounts.

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

[AMISLANDER]

I think Chase has a whole new department devoted to getting money out of bankruptcies. We had to deal with them with our Circuit City card a few months ago.
I will stay far far away from them for the rest of my life.

This Chase thing is weird...as you know my discharge was last Feb....just paid off trustee to keep my SUV and yesterday there was something on pacer filed by my trustee to Chase...an objection to them...with feb. 28th as cut off...it's like what the heck is Chase coming after me for?

I hadn't used the card since 2001!!!! THey must have gotten flooded with a lot of bks is all I can imagine?

[SamanthaJones]

Why else would anyone transfer a balance,

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.