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    Opinions wanted: Should I wait another month?

    My attorney was going to file for me in October, the idea being to time the 341 meeting to hit right before Thanksgiving holiday and the 60 days to fall during the Christmas and New Years holidays, to possibly reduce objections, he says.

    Okay, fine, I agreed to wait til October 23rd or so to file.

    But then I told him about the $13k I took out in balance transfers (basically cash advances because the "balance transfers" went into my checking account to be used as cash), and $7k to the dentist for dental implants, all in November and December of 06. So a total of $20k but $7k was for dental, and they are 3 different credit cards.

    So now he is saying "Maybe we should wait until November to file, just to give it another month, so the $20k would be almost a year old."

    I said, "But does it really matter?" and he said, "Well, maybe not, but I think, just to be sure, waiting another month which would make the advances almost a year old, might be better". I said, "But what about the fact that more of my accounts will then go to collections?" And he said, "Well, let me think about it some more, and we'll discuss it next week."

    So he is open to my opinion and so that's why I'm here.

    My take on it is, based on what people here have already told me, once it's past 6 months, it really shouldn't matter. Right? And since it's 3 creditors, not one, it would likely not be worth each of their efforts to fight it? In other words, the loans are for $7100, $6,100 and $7200, so each of these is not big enough for them to be worth fighting on a 10 month old loan, right? I also made payments without missing any on all of them up until June when I quit paying everyone.

    So although I want to trust my attorney and go with his judgment, I also don't want to wait any longer, this is stressing me out. And isn't it worse for rebuilding credit if more accounts go to collection? Not to mention that all the creditor and collector phone calls are getting on my nerves.

    So, in your opinion, should I encourage my attorney not to wait, (since he seems somewhat on the fence about it), or should I go with his first instinct and wait until November?

    One other thing I thought of: If we wait and file in November, the 341 meeting will be around Christmas instead of around Thanksgiving. Personally I think people are more likely to be stressed out and in a bad mood closer to Christmas, than Thanksgiving. Though I suppose this whole theory of timing it for the holidays isn't such a big deal, anyway...
    <<I am NOT an attorney, my comments are anecdotal only. Contact an attorney for advice>>
    FINALLY DISCHARGED 92 DAYS AFTER THE 341! A NEW START!!!

    #2
    As long as you aren't under the gun for some sort of legal action against you, I'd wait as long as possible.

    Patience is the key to successful BK filing, Grasshopper.

    It's nerve wracking. The phone calls and letters. I got to where I hated to go the mailbox or answer the phone. Still don't answer the phone without checking caller ID first.

    But the more time you put between your most recent charges and filing BK, the better. Reduces your risk of Creditor Objections.
    Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
    Discharged - 12/2006
    Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
    Closed - 04/2007

    I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

    Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

    Comment


      #3
      Hey Pa,

      From what I learned here, it's best to tell the lawyer everything.

      Didn't your lawyer know about these cash advances when he told you the original filing time? It seems like you give him the info in dribs and drabs.

      I probably would have done the same if I didn't happen on this forum. I even had a questionable preferential payment that I would have missed if not for this forum. It is indeed stressful, but having help here is great.

      Good luck Pa, soon we will be out of this mess we created.
      Try to be patient. It will all work out I am sure.

      Comment


        #4
        These transfers are well past the common 90 days old to avoid the look of abuse. What difference will one month make? We are not talking about a bunch on money.

        I think ultimtley you are the boss so if you tell the lawer to file now then he will.You dont need to convince him. Maybe he is just to "busy" for your case now.

        Comment


          #5
          If your attorney is competent, some are not, then follow his advise. It never hurts to put as much time as possible between cash advances and filing BK.
          Chapter 13 Filed 4/03/06 :blink: 341 Meeting Complete 5/11/06 :yes2:
          Plan Confirmation 6/16/06 :yahoo:
          Discharged: 1/5/2010 :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

          Comment


            #6
            Then whats all this 90 day talk about?

            Comment


              #7
              can't hurt to wait.....
              Filed Chapter 7 Pro-Se May 29, 2008
              341 July 1, 2008
              Discharged September 4, 2008
              Closed November 10, 2008 :-)

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by 325Falcon View Post
                Then whats all this 90 day talk about?
                Good question! It definitely doesn't seem to be anything that helps the debtor. It could be 30 days and the outcome would be the exact same. All it does is help the creditor by inflating balances with late fees and higher interest rates. A little more funny money for creditors to write off.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by B12 View Post
                  Hey Pa,

                  From what I learned here, it's best to tell the lawyer everything.

                  Didn't your lawyer know about these cash advances when he told you the original filing time? It seems like you give him the info in dribs and drabs.

                  I probably would have done the same if I didn't happen on this forum. I even had a questionable preferential payment that I would have missed if not for this forum. It is indeed stressful, but having help here is great.

                  Good luck Pa, soon we will be out of this mess we created.
                  Try to be patient. It will all work out I am sure.
                  Well, after reading all the replies there certainly does not seem to be a total agreement among the masses... so far...

                  B12, when I had my first meeting with the attorney he did not ask about any debts older than 6 months. From what I learned here, I didn't think anything older than 6 months even mattered. So that's why I did not tell him.

                  Also, the fact is, I had forgotten how much I took out and when. Just for kicks I looked at my bank account statements for the past year and discovered the transfers into my account in November and December. Since it was a relatively large amount of money (though not from just one creditor, thank goodness) I decided to tell him as soon as I found out about it.

                  I was surprised that he was concerned, frankly, I thought he'd say it didn't matter. But if a few people here think he might be right, then I guess I'll wait. As to if he's knowledgeable or not, I'd say he is, but who knows? He says he does a lot of bankruptcies, but again, who knows? Do we ever really know?
                  <<I am NOT an attorney, my comments are anecdotal only. Contact an attorney for advice>>
                  FINALLY DISCHARGED 92 DAYS AFTER THE 341! A NEW START!!!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by 325Falcon View Post
                    Then whats all this 90 day talk about?
                    Originally posted by jp2861 View Post
                    Good question! It definitely doesn't seem to be anything that helps the debtor. It could be 30 days and the outcome would be the exact same. All it does is help the creditor by inflating balances with late fees and higher interest rates. A little more funny money for creditors to write off.
                    Guys, you are trying to make bankruptcy a black and white thing when it's got a ton of gray in it. The 90-day period serves only to shift the burden of proving that you didn't make the charges already intending to file from you to your creditors. That's all.

                    The 90 day period isn't now and never has been a guarantee that your creditor won't file an objection. It just LESSENS the chances of an objection because the creditor has to prove in court that you did the charge knowing you weren't going to pay it back. Frankly, that's hard to do.

                    The more time that passes after big charges before filing, the better. If you aren't filing in a rush to stop a foreclosure or repossession, then if you can wait to file, I would wait.
                    Last edited by lrprn; 10-18-2007, 10:03 PM.
                    I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice nor a statement of the law - only a lawyer can provide those.

                    06/01/06 - Filed Ch 13
                    06/28/06 - 341 Meeting
                    07/18/06 - Confirmation Hearing - not confirmed, 3 objections
                    10/05/06 - Hearing to resolve 2 trustee objections
                    01/24/07 - Judge dismisses mortgage company objection
                    09/27/07 - Confirmed at last!
                    06/10/11 - Trustee confirms all payments made
                    08/10/11 - DISCHARGED !

                    10/02/11 - CASE CLOSED
                    Countdown: 60 months paid, 0 months to go

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by PaKettle View Post

                      Also, the fact is, I had forgotten how much I took out and when. Just for kicks I looked at my bank account statements for the past year and discovered the transfers into my account in November and December. Since it was a relatively large amount of money (though not from just one creditor, thank goodness) I decided to tell him as soon as I found out about it.

                      I was surprised that he was concerned, frankly, I thought he'd say it didn't matter. But if a few people here think he might be right, then I guess I'll wait. As to if he's knowledgeable or not, I'd say he is, but who knows? He says he does a lot of bankruptcies, but again, who knows? Do we ever really know?
                      We were asked, by several attnys including the one we retained, what we'd used our CC accts for in the previous 12 months. And specifically about any large cash advances or purchases in the previous year.

                      In our case, we were charging groceries, gasoline, utilities, and such. Living expenses. Cash advances were using a convenience check to pay a bill. Again, living expenses. Attnys weren't worried about any of that.

                      They did specifically ask, "Did you take a large amount of cash and put it in your bank acct for any reason in the last year?? Say to take a trip, purchase a big screen TV, or jewelry??" type questions.

                      The 70/90 day Rule is just a guideline for presumption. Beyond the 70/90 days, the burden of proof shifts from the Debtor/Filer to the Creditor. If your financial picture looked rosey and peachy keen when you took the money, then go ahead and file. If things were ever so precarious, then wait a bit longer.
                      Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
                      Discharged - 12/2006
                      Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
                      Closed - 04/2007

                      I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

                      Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Pa - First of all, you have done this the right way - do alot of research and get yourself in position to know exactly what is ahead of you.

                        It has been at least 10 months now since your cash advances. If you have been making payments on these for at least 6 months, I would not worry much about objections. I know it is a scary proposition, but the creditors have to prove you did not intend to pay these back. After this much time and this many payments, that is highly, highly unlikely.

                        So, if you have made at least 6 minimum payments on each of these credit cards since your last cash advance, you are all set. File when you are ready. It might be easy to say 'wait as long as you can', but the sooner you get in, the sooner you get out and on with your life!
                        Filed Business Chapter 7: 7/11/07
                        341 Meeting: 8/8/07 Asset Case
                        US Trustee reviewed case/resolved 9/14/07
                        Discharged: 10/11/07 Closed: 11/2/08

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Great thread!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm sure its because either he is very busy right now OR that the trustee/court in your district is VERY strict and he know this and wanta a cut dry BK case.
                            As for me, I was asked about that same old 90 day question, opened any new account in the last year and transfers. I was told to wait for a year since the last account was opened and a balance transfered on it, and a year plus few months from a small personal injury settlement. This lead me to filing in August this year. My last charges were October 2006. Mine were all grocery, clothing, school supply and such. No 52" LCD Tvs, lol!!
                            I doubt you have to worry about anything, as you have been honest and havent take ant trips to Vanuatu on credit...but wait it out anyhow. We all have to prolong our suffering here a bit.
                            Good Luck PA!
                            WAM
                            ch7 8/07 CLOSED: 11/07 Rebuilding and saving.
                            WAMU unsecured $2,000 Capital One unsecured $500
                            PAID OFF MONTHLY!!!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hey Pa,

                              I hear ya about the attorney not asking about anything except the past 6 months. That is why I am sooooooooooooo happy I found this forum. I avoided a pitfall that the attorney might not have picked up.

                              I am still in a waiting period and I feel your pain. I am just hoping that my mortgage company doesn't start foreclosing since I have learned that it is better to do both at once.

                              Someone here said BK is about waiting and patience. So true.

                              Are you letting the house go Pa? If not, wait. If so, try to figure out how many months you have in the house and try to wait it out.

                              I know some here say to go ahead and file, but you sound like you are concerned about a large money transfer, as I am, and the more time that elapses, the better.

                              Time passes very quickly Pa, soon it will be all over. Just keep your focus on the end and try to stay calm.

                              BTW, I USED to have long, beautiful nails!!!

                              Comment

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