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Can the Trustee reopen Ch7 BK 7 mos after discharge?

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    Can the Trustee reopen Ch7 BK 7 mos after discharge?

    Hi all! I'm hoping that someone here can shed some light on a new issue that just came up about our Chapter 7 Bankruptcy.

    We had our 341 meeting in June of 2007. We were upside down on our house, had just paid off our car, and reaffirmed on our first and second mortgages. The only asset of concern on our schedules was 8 shares of company stock my husband purchased through an employee stock purchase plan. This is privately held stock, which was valued at $493/share at the time we filed. We were pretty sure that the Trustee would ask us to liquidate the stock. We provided documentation to him for his consideration, noting that being a 'part owner' of the company allows my husband to avoid winter layoffs, and accords other benefits not available to non-stock-owning employees.

    The trustee asked for a letter from my husband's employer, laying out the increased benefits that my husband would lose if he had to liquidate the stock. We got that letter for the trustee, and also submitted a copy of the stock valuation report that showed the per-share value of the stock. The stock (at its full value) was definitely present on our BK schedules. All documentation was presented to the trustee through our attorneys.

    After submitting the requested documentation, we heard nothing more. We received notice of Discharge on August 21, 2007, as well as notice that the BK was closed as of August 27, 2007. The notice of Discharge that we received mentioned that our case was judged by the trustee to be a 'no asset' case, and that any interest in any assets was thereby abandoned. It also relieved the trustee of further oversight on the case.

    This past week, on March 5, 2008, my husband's EMPLOYER received a letter from the Trustee's office. The letter did not go through our attorney, nor was a copy sent to us. The letter was written by a lawyer who said she was writing it 'on behalf of' the trustee, who (she said) is the 'duly-appointed and acting trustee of the ... bankruptcy estate.' The letter goes on to inquire (again) about the value of the stock we held last May, as well as the current value of those shares, and goes on to inquire if there is a 'minimally acceptable number of shares of stock for each employee to own in order to receive the benefits' which were outlined in the original letter the employer wrote to the Trustee last July.

    My question is -- what the heck? I thought that after the discharge was received and the case was closed, we were done with the whole mess! I checked the automated case history information at the US Bankruptcy Court, and it still says our case is discharged and closed. No further filings have been made or received, as far as we know. Can a trustee who has been discharged by the court, start sending letters like this seven months past discharge?

    This whole thing has us really upset. I would be so grateful if anyone can shed some light on this matter for us. Thanks so much in advance!

    (PS -- we are in Indiana, and that is where our case was filed and discharged.)

    Thanks again!

    Jenny

    #2
    The trustee or their representative can investigate reopening a closed bankruptcy case if they believe an asset of sufficient value has been overlooked. Sounds like that what may be what is happening in your case.

    It looks like the trustee's lawyer is trying to find out if the value of your stock is worth reopening your case and going after the money. Typically this happens when the asset is newly discovered after the closing - however you declared yours up front from the start and provided documentation to boot. What's happening here is not the norm, so it's curious what brought this situation to the trustee's attention again so long after your case closed.

    Sorry to hear you may be dragged back into your case once again by this. However, until you or your lawyer receive official notification your case is being reopened, there's not much to be done except wait it out to see what happens. Do call your lawyer to let him/her know what's happened so they can be proactive on your behalf as needed.

    The very worst case scenario is that your case will be reopened and you'll be asked to turn over the value of the stock to the trustee. Best case scenario is that the value won't be worth going after and the entire matter will be dropped. Even if your case is reopened, your lawyer could make a good case to the bk judge stating the trustee had plenty of time to find this "asset" earlier, you disclosed it, and your employer provided the value in writing while your case was active, so the trustee has no right to reopen your case now so long after closing.

    So sorry you are having to go through this, jenny13. Hopefully the trustee's rep finds there just isn't enough to go after and that will be the end of it. We'll help you get through this - hang in there!
    I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice nor a statement of the law - only a lawyer can provide those.

    06/01/06 - Filed Ch 13
    06/28/06 - 341 Meeting
    07/18/06 - Confirmation Hearing - not confirmed, 3 objections
    10/05/06 - Hearing to resolve 2 trustee objections
    01/24/07 - Judge dismisses mortgage company objection
    09/27/07 - Confirmed at last!
    06/10/11 - Trustee confirms all payments made
    08/10/11 - DISCHARGED !

    10/02/11 - CASE CLOSED
    Countdown: 60 months paid, 0 months to go

    Comment


      #3
      Interesting that this is happening 9 months AFTER the 341. I also listed stock on my petition and that will not be released until the year 2011 because of my company's policy.

      Looks like I have something to look forward to (sigh).
      Filed: 01/23/08
      341 Meeting: 02/29/08
      Discharged: 04/30/08
      Closed: 05/12/08

      Comment


        #4
        oh crap we have to list stock? DH has shares of his privately owned company (given when he was hired) but we have NO idea what it's worth (if anything at all)

        crap!
        CJ
        341 on 8/3, determined NO ASSET
        60 day wait was over on 10/3/08. Discharged 12/23/08

        Comment


          #5
          Seems like anything sent out to anyone regarding you Bk should be logged in with the court and also sent to you.

          Sound fishy to me.

          Comment


            #6
            Keeping our fingers crossed

            Thank you all for your replies -- I really appreciate your support!

            My husband's boss is going to go ahead and reply to the letter. All the trustee will see is that we reported the value of the stock properly on our schedules in the first place. The value in May 07 was less than $3000 -- not a big chunk of cash to divide up among our creditors. There's no way my husband will agree to sell the stock -- it's a matter of principle now. We'll buy it out if we have to.

            I agree that this whole thing sounds fishy . . . how is it possible that a letter my husband's employer sent on July 30 just now 'made its way to the desk' of this trustee underling? Makes no sense. We're hoping that they'll see that it will cost them more to go after the stock than it's worth.

            Honestly, the hardest thing about all this is having to revisit the whole BK thing again. It felt like a post-traumatic stress flashback to see this letter. Luckily, we were honest on our schedules, and the new letter to the trustee will bear that out.

            So, now it's wait and see time ... I'll post back and let you know what happens. Thanks again -- you guys are awesome!

            Jenny

            Comment


              #7
              Good luck, Jenny!

              Yes, keep us updated. I'd like to know how this turns out.
              Chapter 13 Filed "Old Law"
              Filed: 6/2003 Confirmed: 3/2004
              Early pay off sent: 10/05/2007 - 9 months early
              11/16/2007 - Discharged!

              Comment


                #8
                Final outcome

                Hi gang!

                Well, I finally have an outcome to share with you :-)

                After my last post here about this issue, I contacted my case manager at the US Bankruptcy Court. He told me that no further documents had been filed in our case since it was closed in August of 2007. He advised me to contact the Trustee directly.

                I left messages with the Trustee, and it took about a month to receive a return phone call. I was told that the Trustee's office is allowed to reopen any BK case at any time, if it finds assets that could be of benefit to the creditors. I was told that the fact that the case was closed as a 'no asset' case had no effect upon the Trustee's right to seize assets at any time in the future. I was further told that they were considering whether or not to go after these few shares of stock, and a decision would be made in a few weeks. Because our attorneys were not returning our phone calls, I was given 'permission' to check back in a few weeks, to see if our case was going to be reopened or not.

                I called again this past Tuesday, and was told that the Trustee had decided NOT to reopen our case to seize the stock. WHEW! It is OVER!

                It is disturbing to me, though, that having a BK discharged and closed apparently means less than I thought it did. If a Trustee can reopen a case at any time to seize assets shown on the original schedule that they originally decided to leave alone -- well, how do any of us ever know that it is really, really over? This is a part of the bankruptcy law that I was completely unaware of.

                Anyhow -- thank you all for your support! It really helped to be able to come here and ask questions, etc. Bankruptcy is such a difficult experience, and it truly helps to know that you're not alone!

                Have a great weekend!

                Warmest blessings,
                Jenny

                Comment


                  #9
                  What the trustee told you is true, but a tad misleading. Yes, the trustee can continue to investigate a closed case, its rare, but can happen. Usually, the purpose of the investigation is if some new asset came to light that would have been part of the BK estate. Also, they can only investigate for assets that existed at the time you filed your petition.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    So this brings up a questions to me. What would have happened if the stock had increased significantly in value from the time of filing to the time of the trustee's follow up. For example if at filing they were worth $3000 and the the trustee decided it wasn't worth there time. Then six months later the company has some sort of success that doubles the value of the stock. Would the trustee only be entitled to the original value or the new value?
                    Filed: 10/26/2006
                    Discharged: 03/05/2007
                    Closed: 5/19/2008 - Asset case due to balance transfer and income tax refund

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I asked my attorney this same question & the answer is yes. Judges & Trustees can do it. A creditor can also get it reopened if they can prove themselves, for example if they were left off the petition deliberate & they can convince the judge that they would have objected. (i wont argue about it as my attorney said he had never experienced it but knew of cases, for example one creditor in a case went after a trust fund that came into possesion within the 180 days after closing), but we are talking about $50,000, which is worth their time to watch for.


                      It is disturbing to me, though, that having a BK discharged and closed apparently means less than I thought it did. If a Trustee can reopen a case at any time to seize assets shown on the original schedule that they originally decided to leave alone -- well, how do any of us ever know that it is really, really over? This is a part of the bankruptcy law that I was completely unaware of.
                      Most people are not aware of it or they just turn face to real possibilities as too many areas of this law are not written in stone.

                      What you are seeing is so extremely rare & I hope it is either laid to rest & they dont bother you or it goes very quickly & they do not create chaos in your life. Kindest Regards & Best Wishes.
                      Last edited by Bandit; 05-30-2008, 07:39 AM. Reason: spelling errors

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by JollyGG View Post
                        So this brings up a questions to me. What would have happened if the stock had increased significantly in value from the time of filing to the time of the trustee's follow up. For example if at filing they were worth $3000 and the the trustee decided it wasn't worth there time. Then six months later the company has some sort of success that doubles the value of the stock. Would the trustee only be entitled to the original value or the new value?
                        If it is within that 6 month period, my hunch is they will go for the new value, because they can. If it is within the 180 day period it does not have to be something that was included as an asset in the original filing, it can be a new asset that comes after closing. They came after my grandmother 180 days after closing looking for new assets & higher income, but lucky for her nothing had changed in her life.

                        We all know a big question they ask is if we are expecting anything of value to come into our possession within that 180 days, & they are serious when they ask. I could be wrong but I think we are safe if new assets come after the 180 days and that have nothing to do with the initial filing.

                        I absolutley abhor this part of the law.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I am stunned at the lack of "protection" bankruptcy seems to afford anyone. I knew Ch. 13 could be prolonged agony, but I thought Ch. 7 had finality. I find this to be the worst part of it all, having to live in fear of what is going to happen next. The uncertainty is the worst!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by JollyGG View Post
                            So this brings up a questions to me. What would have happened if the stock had increased significantly in value from the time of filing to the time of the trustee's follow up. For example if at filing they were worth $3000 and the the trustee decided it wasn't worth there time. Then six months later the company has some sort of success that doubles the value of the stock. Would the trustee only be entitled to the original value or the new value?
                            The value of assets is FIXED on the date you file your petition, there is NO exception. Bandit, there is no 180 day rule, at least not in the way you suggest.

                            The 180 day rule applies only to when someone dies and leaves you money. This other "fabricated" 180 day windfall provision does NOT exist (or, at least it is not as simplistic as many suggest). There is a grey area legally, when a trustee looks for things "after" BK they are actually looking for fraud and abuse, they are not so much looking for new assets, they CAN'T touch truly post discharge acquired assets. For example, you bought a lottery ticket "before" you filed BK and it won. But you don't say anything and collect your winnings 6 months after the BK was discharged. The trustee can go after that. If you are slated to get a raise at work, but it doesn't happen until 3 months after discharge, the trustee may allege fraud because you "timed" your BK to qualify.
                            Last edited by HHM; 05-30-2008, 08:00 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15

                              Comment

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