Pro Se Ch7 non-consumer in MN - My Story

[soleprop]

I'd also adjust your tax witholding. You might not get out of her taking the return next year as it is so close but if you adjust down your witholding you can decrease what she gets and prevent her from getting future years

i can't imagine she'd smile on that but....it'll have to happen. i've become an independent contractor (within the last week), so i'll be using the 1099 and will have to manage my own tax payments. anyone have any advice here? this will be my first time doing so, and while it would seem i have more money coming in (thanks to not having to line a consulting firm's pockets) i will also have to pay my full health ins. premiums ($259/month) and my full tax obligations. i don't receive my first paycheck under this new setup for a month so i didn't mention it to the trustee (as it is happening well after the 341). also the current work i'm doing is only slated to run through november at the latest, then i'm unemployed again.

Next on the jewelry, did you get it appraised? If not might be worth taking to a jewelry shop and getting it appraised, see if it is worth as much as you put on the forms. If it is worth less it might become to the point they aren't interested in it.

i didn't get the jewelry appraised prior to filing (no time) but i listed the items at what i assumed were fair values (two tiny diamond eternity bands at $500 each - one is little more than diamond chips and the other only slightly bigger than chips), one diamond pendant (again with the tiny diamonds) at $200 (paid $299), and a gold necklace with pendant at $200.

MN exemptions allow for jewelry (up to $500 per piece) to be included in the general personal property/household goods exemption; additionally there's a 'wedding ring' exemption not to exceed $1225. one of the rings i valued at $500 is an engagement ring -- by law is this considered = to a wedding ring in status, or not (anyone know?). i didn't try using the wedding ring exemption because the jewelry fit within my personal property/household goods exemption (so i'm unclear on why she thinks she can have it).

anyway i took this ring to a jewelry store yesterday (they were closed) and then to a pawn shop to see what they had to say; the pawn shop said they'd give me $50 for it based on weight but didn't know how much they thought they could get reselling it in their store (their expert is enjoying the holiday weekend). at this point i'm going to try to get my pieces appraised this coming week, in addition to reworking my exemptions. i'll be creating a thread that asks some very specific questions regarding the application of the federal exemptions to my assets and i'd love anyone's opinions (i know they're exactly that, and any additional opinions to my own will hopefully create some sense of nonbias so i can further decide how to handle this).

What other nonexempt property is she referring to? It might also be possible to set up some sort of payment plan to keep your property.

she didn't say anything else specific, just said that general statement 'and your other nonexempt assets' -- i'm thinking i should be able to call her on tuesday and ask what other assets she does not feel are exempt in my filing so that i can have them appraised and also research the allowed exemptions that may cover them. i will ask her if MN district (and her specifically) participate in or allow debtors to buy back their nonexempt assets from the trustee in a payment plan.

we'll see how that goes....again any advice from anyone on any of these issues is WELCOME!!!! thank you guys for reading my thread and offering your ideas/input.

[JRScott]

I'd also adjust your tax witholding. You might not get out of her taking the return next year as it is so close but if you adjust down your witholding you can decrease what she gets and prevent her from getting future years

Next on the jewelry, did you get it appraised? If not might be worth taking to a jewelry shop and getting it appraised, see if it is worth as much as you put on the forms. If it is worth less it might become to the point they aren't interested in it.

What other nonexempt property is she referring to?

It might also be possible to set up some sort of payment plan to keep your property.

[No Gravy]

well it's done, i survived my first and last 341. the nutshell is the trustee said if i stick with the MN exemptions she's going to go after my tax returns for the next couple of years as well as the jewelry i've listed and 'other nonexempt assets.'

and of course i'm pro se and the trustee can't give me legal advice

It looks to me like she was helping you as much as she could, within the law, and tipping you off.

I'm not from MN and I probably can't give advice, but to have a trustee go after the tax returns for the next couple of years sounds crazy on their part.

[Tabbygirl]

OK, so you used the MN exemptions--if you amend and use the fed ones, would everything be about the same? Oh--books. How much/how did you value those? I, too, have tons of books, but honestly, when you try and resale they are worth virtually nothing unless you have something really rare like a first edition autographed Gone With the Wind or a Gutenberg Bible. It sucks, I know. But in this case, this may work in your favor.

Jewelry? Again, don't over-value; the mark-up on jewelry is crazy-high and what you could really get for it is probably less. Same with clothing; go garage or thrift-store valuation ( think I did $400 or $500, just to be safe).

I hope you can amend it; at least you know which schedule is at issue!! That's a huge plus and I agree--that's good you were told exactly what was wrong.

Oh, about withholding--are you self-employed or a regular employee now? If you have WH, do adjust your deductions; even if you owe a little and pay in full w/ your 1040, that's better than handing over your return. Or if you are self-employed, maybe reduce the amount you do for estimated tax...again, I'm not a CPA, but I did work for IRS years ago and that was one thing we tried to encourage people--to use their money throughout the year rather than waiting for a big-honking refund.

Hope you get everything done so you can relax!!!! I know I was scared to death when the trustee was questioning all these other cases and then he didn't nit-pick mine too much. But I don't own a house nor do I have any investments, trusts or any of that stuff.

And I still wonder why all of a sudden she wants your tax return; it's not a 13, so with my assumption, shouldn't they just let it lie? The trustee did ask about my tax return, but I filed in February and it's gone...have you filed already for 2007 or do you have an extension (which is totally legal and can't be held against you)? I'm just thinking out loud and wondering what's the deal.

Hang in there!!!!

[Keebler]

Why not adjust your tax witholdings to be sure you don't get a refund for the trustee to take? If you owe a couple hundred dollars at the end of the year it's even better.

I've done it before and it's not rocket science.

[soleprop]

341 meeting today..i need to work on my exemptions.

well it's done, i survived my first and last 341. the nutshell is the trustee said if i stick with the MN exemptions she's going to go after my tax returns for the next couple of years as well as the jewelry i've listed and 'other nonexempt assets.'

i was shocked, as everything i've read led me to believe that the exemptions i applied protected what few assets i have. i thought i was tucked nicely inside the MN exemptions but i'm going to have to do some research and find out where i flubbed it. some of the reasons i chose the MN exemptions vs. the federal:

• higher 'tools of the trade' exemption: $9500
• 100% exempt library (i have a ton of books)
• 100% exempt wardrobe, kitchen utensils, etc
• 100% exempt musical instruments
• 100% exempt pets
• higher vehicle exemption: $3800
• i could fit everything else into the personal property/household goods exemption: $8550

i didn't opt for the federal exemptions for the above reasons, plus i wasn't sure if i could use the homestead exemption or wildcard when i have no real estate (i rent). and of course i'm pro se and the trustee can't give me legal advice and she said there is no resource for me to consult regarding the application of federal exemptions. bleh. i'd absolutely love it if one/some of you would help me sort this out.

expect more thread updates (and probably questions) regarding this; she gave me the standard 10 days to submit amended schedules.

i'm glad she gave me that heads up in person rather than saving it for some cryptic update to my case in PACER, but i know i've got a bit more work cut out for me.

i also need to provide bank statements showing balances for the filing date for each account listed in my schedule B (paypal included). i had only brought my checking account statement (so i have to fax the rest in).

now for a list of the questions i was asked (more or less complete):

• name and address
• did i read/sign the declaration
• did i read/understand/sign the petition and am i familiar with its contents
• confirmation of most current and valid tax return
• did i receive a stimulus payment prior to filing date/what amount
• did i receive my tax refunds prior to filing date
• confirmation of the car i drive
• do i own any real estate
• have i transferred any property in the 90 days prior to filing
• has anyone taken money or property from me in the 90 days prior to filing
• have i paid any of my creditors $600 or more in the last 6 months
• did i transfer any property worth more than $1000 in the last two years
• have i operated a business within the last two years
• what was the nature of the business
• what is the status of the business
• where are the assets of the business
• are there any assets not listed in the schedules
• are there any omissions or errors in the schedules
• did i include all creditors

might remember a few more and if i do i'll update the list.

i'm worn out. time to go vegetate and hit the research tomorrow. i need to find out how many of the federal exemptions i can actually use to cover my assets.

my tax returns are generally around $1500 a year - anyone know how to stuff those into an exemption? i didn't think that was possible. as for the $1500 in jewelry, i'm getting it appraised tomorrow, as i am pretty sure i overvalued it to err on the 'safe' side (no one piece over $500 though).

i really don't want this case to drag on and on in some undischarged state.


thanks for reading, any insight, advice, or resource suggestions are welcome!!


edit: i have been rereading through this thread and need to give props to 'deafbroke' who pointed out the exemption issue waaaay back on page 1 - i'm such a goof and did not know how to process that info then....but i do now!!

[soleprop]

Yes, thank you!

Signed,

A stressed out person considering pro se chapter 7, though only 30% non-consumer

glad my thread might help someone!

[soleprop]

Letter in the mail from the trustee today

basically confirming the date of the 341 meeting and what i should bring...which includes bank statements for all accounts open at time of filing for the period of time between file date and date of hearing (sigh), paystubs for the same time period (up to the 341), most recent tax return, proof of SSN, and a photo ID.




edit: found out at the 341 that trustee was serious about wanting bank statements for ALL accounts open at time of filing; paypal included.

[No Gravy]

i'm treating this thread a little bit like a journal - except it is better than an actual journal because you all can chime in - and maybe when it's all said and done, some stressed out person considering pro se ch7 nonconsumer bk will stumble upon it and see end to end what questions and doubt you can start out with, what work and organization you end up having to do, and (hopefully) what relief is at the end of the journey.

Yes, thank you!

Signed,

A stressed out person considering pro se chapter 7, though only 30% non-consumer

[No Gravy]

Hi soleprop,
I am in the same boat--failed small business. I did retain a lawyer, and will be filing in the next few weeks--just finishing the closing process and final inventory, etc.
I have close to 80,000 in unsecured debt--made the mistake of financing a good chunk of my business on credit cards. In my mind I was using the excellent credit history that I had established to start up the new business. No excellent credit history now...
I hope that all goes well for you. I feel a bit overwhelmed by the whole process, but I am trying to take it one step at a time. No complaints or suits yet, so I still feel like I can take my time--but I imagine someone will file something legal soon and I will probably have to speed up the process on my end.
The biggest problem I have right now is trying to get they business closed and get the final inventory. I still have a lot of inventory--which most likely won't be exempt.
Hope that all goes well for you.

Same boat here, too. It helps to know I'm not alone.

[soleprop]

BNC Certificate of mailing - Meeting of creditors

so.. i filed on 7/28/08, and the court sent out the notice to my creditors on 7/31/08. in pacer it looks like this:

BNC Certificate of mailing - Meeting of creditors. Service Date 07/31/2008.

[soleprop]

Trustee assigned and 341 meeting set

Meeting of Creditors. Trustee (name omitted) assigned to the case. 341(a) meeting to be held on 8/29/2008 at 03:00 PM at (location omitted). Certificate of completion of financial management course due 10/14/2008. Last day to oppose discharge or dischargeability is 10/28/2008.

[soleprop]

so i filed today...

i didn't really plan to do it today, i just wanted to ask clerks questions - but it was such a hassle finding the courthouse in Minneapolis that by the time i got in there i was sure not leaving until it was done.

if you need to find the clerks office for the mn district bk court, don't let anyone in downtown tell you that's handled in the civil court/different building. it is in the federal court building, 3rd floor. also, the escalator you see immediately to the left when you enter that building DOES NOT TAKE YOU THERE. you have to go through the goofy security thingamajabber in the back left corner of the big empty entrance room. if you don't realize that and take the escalator, it takes you to the 2nd floor where there is an elevator which only lets you go back down to the 1st floor.

rat in a maze, anyone?

i can say it'll be great to not go to bed tonight with the pile of bk paperwork on the other side of the bed -- i'm streeeeetching out!!

i'll start looking at my 341 prep in a couple of weeks; pretty sure i'm ready for it as it is, except for the copy of the car title that MN wants you to bring.

edit: didn't need the car title at the 341, trustee never indicated she wanted it.

i made note of my credit scores tonight so i have something to compare the scores i have in 6 months and then again a year from now too.

that's it for tonight!

[soleprop]

thanks, gopher!! i think all of this organization and paperwork has been good for me. sadly though the 'empty' side of my bed is no longer empty - i sleep curled up next to my NOLO book, laptop, and files. it makes it easy to roll over and take a nap, or roll back over and chew on the case some more. Ha!!! i am looking forward to that part being over, in addition to the rest of it :P

[gophermn]

soleprop - good luck on your filing! I also am in MN but had an attny on my side.
Good luck.