Pro Se Ch7 non-consumer in MN - My Story

[No Gravy]

wheeee!!!

it's still taking a little time to soak in. i'll wait to pull my credit reports until the case is closed for a month. then i'll hit them with ms. clean

And then you'll post here about "Ms. Clean", too, yes?

(I'm planning ahead, and following in your footsteps! lol)

[Debster222]

My BK case was a pro se case and I was scared to death myself, but needlessly, really. Just make sure that you cross your T's and dot your I's and don't lie about anything, because they will try to catch you in lies. I was amazed at the details the trustee was aware of that I hadn't yet disclosed, so I was glad I didn't leave out anything important.

Just take your time on your paperwork and don't rush. I spent about two weeks preparing my forms. I didn't read the entire thread, but I'm sure someone probably told you to get the Nolo BK book. Also, be sure to check your local rules for extra forms and instructions you may need.

It is a daunting task, but it can be done if you are patient and careful.

[soleprop]

wheeee!!!

it's still taking a little time to soak in. i'll wait to pull my credit reports until the case is closed for a month. then i'll hit them with ms. clean

[No Gravy]

WhooooooooooHooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

[JRScott]

Congrats Sole

Welcome to the Fresh Start

[soleprop]

Discharge granted - 10/29/08

DISCHARGE OF DEBTOR(S)
It appears that the debtor(s) are entitled to a discharge,

IT IS ORDERED:
The debtor(s) are granted a discharge under section 727 of title 11, United States Code, (the Bankruptcy Code).



EXPLANATION OF BANKRUPTCY DISCHARGE IN A CHAPTER 7 CASE
This court order grants a discharge to the persons named as the debtors. It is not a dismissal of the case and it does not determine how much money, if any, the trustee will pay to creditors.

Collection of Discharged Debts Prohibited
The discharge prohibits any attempt to collect from the debtors a debt that has been discharged. For example, a
creditor is not permitted to contact a debtor by mail, phone, or otherwise, to file or continue a lawsuit, to attach wages or other property, or to take any other action to collect a discharged debt from the debtors. A creditor who violates this order can be required to pay damages and attorney's fees to the debtor.

However, a creditor may have the right to enforce a valid lien, such as a mortgage or security interest, against the
debtors' property after the bankruptcy, if that lien was not avoided or eliminated in the bankruptcy case. Also, a
debtor may voluntarily pay any debt that has been discharged.

Debts That are Discharged
The chapter 7 discharge order eliminates a debtor's legal obligation to pay a debt that is discharged. Most, but not all, types of debts are discharged if the debt existed on the date the bankruptcy case was filed. (If this case was begun under a different chapter of the Bankruptcy Code and converted to chapter 7, the discharge applies to debts owed when the bankruptcy case was converted.)

Debts that are Not Discharged.
Some of the common types of debts which are not discharged in a chapter 7 bankruptcy case are:

a. Debts for most taxes;
b. Debts incurred to pay nondischargeable taxes (in a case filed on or after October 17, 2005);
c. Debts that are in the nature of alimony, maintenance, or support;
d. Debts for most student loans;
e. Debts for most fines, penalties, forfeitures, or criminal restitution obligations;
f. Debts for personal injuries or death caused by the debtor's operation of a motor vehicle while intoxicated;
g. Some debts which were not properly listed by the debtor;
h. Debts that the bankruptcy court specifically has decided or will decide in this bankruptcy case are not
discharged;
i. Debts for which the debtor has given up the discharge protections by signing a reaffirmation agreement in
compliance with the Bankruptcy Code requirements for reaffirmation of debts.
j. Debts owed to certain pension, profit sharing, stock bonus, other retirement plans, or to the Thrift Savings
Plan for federal employees for certain types of loans from these plans (in a case filed on or after October 17,
2005).

[soleprop]

yeah i think i read somewhere that the trustee is required to determine asset/no asset within 10 days of the 341, which would explain her quick update. i took the 10 days to get my filing amended, i definitely have no complaints re: my trustee (so far). she gave me more help than i anticipated a trustee would -- she put my interests above her own.

[Tabbygirl]

Hey--did you just amend the forms yesterday and the update is already posted?!!???!!

Sounds good!! My PACER info still shows nothing new which sounds like that might be a good thing.

[soleprop]

Trustee determines 'No Asset' case!!!

at least i think that's what this entry in PACER means:

-- Filed & Entered: 09/09/2008
Notice of no asset case
Docket Text: Notice of no asset case by trustee (name omitted)

am i reading that right?? if so......





i musta done something right with my amended schedule C

[soleprop]

Amending my bk filing tomorrow!!

welllllllllllll after a week of heavy scrutiny on my bk filing i've decided i need to amend the following:

• Summary of Schedules
• Schedule B
• Schedule C
• Schedule F
• Form 6 (Declaration)
• Form 7 (Statement of Financial Affairs)
• Creditor Matrix

reasons for amending:

• i had 2 more creditors pop up last week (Sched. F, Matrix)
• i got my jewelry appraised by a jewelry reseller which decreased the asset values (Sched. B and C)
• i took the trustee's hint and applied fed exemptions vs. state (didn't realize that although i don't have a homestead, i can use $10,125 of the homestead exemption against any other property - woot!). pretty sure i managed to cover my 2007 tax return, 2007 stimulus dispersement, and pending 2008 tax return and have put roughly $6k remaining exemption towards future wages/returns. only pretty sure because as a pro se bumpkin i probably hacked the exemption and assets together like firewood cut with scissors.
• i realized i goofed up the Statement of Financial Affairs by forgetting to put my income in section 1, my account levy by MN state in May, and wanted to clean up some last minute handwriting i'd done on the form regarding a judgement.

the schedule updates required a revised summary (page count changes, $ total changes), and i was advised by the bk clerks that i should print/sign a new Declaration re: schedules as the schedules were revised.

i'm off to the bk clerks tomorrow to pay my $26 and amend all of this junk; tomorrow is the 10th and final day granted by the trustee to get it done. i'll be back at the bk clerk's counter with my post-filing ed. cert. wednesday...

and then i guess it is finally time to sit back with my popcorn and watch the PACER updates???



yeah well anyway, i feel like and and at this point don't think there's another thing i could manage to do regarding my case that would make it any better; it just is what it is, hope that's good enough for the trustee!

thanks for reading and stay tuned...

[soleprop]

hi tom - we can file CH7 if we make more than the median income w/out the presumption of abuse because of the primarily nonconsumer status of our debts, however we have to prove that even with this additional income we still cannot make headway on our debts; this is proved by disposable income.

my particular situation: my income is slightly over the median (i'm over by $659). i showed all of my expenses (budget, if you will) in Schedule J which shows i come out -$38/month disposable income. as i understand it, if you have less than $100/month in disposable income available (based on your Schedule J) they cannot convert you to 13 as you cannot fund a payment plan, regardless of your income.

if you or if i had $200 - $500/month available after monthly expenses you can bet the trustee would not be letting our CH7s sail through without some serious hitches.

but if you make $5000 a month (shown on Schedule I) and have $4900 in legit (not extravagant) expenses (shown on Schedule J), they can't touch you, even though your income is higher than median.

hope that helps, but really it's friday and my brain checked out a few hours ago, lol!

g'luck and keep me posted on your case.

[Tom_Mi]

Soleprop,
I'm also going to file next week nonconsumer.

How did you handle the caveat that: "Despite not having a means test, If your real budget has any extra money in it, they can stick you with a CH13"

It seems contradictory that the mans test doesn't apply but that you still have this mysterious "budget test".

Did you submit a budget or something? How are costs/leftover cash determined by the Trustee?

[No Gravy]

i agree - my debts are primarily nonconsumer, and i just want to move on from that failed business attempt. this will just drag it out. hopefully she will change her mind, maybe she was just trying to scare me, maybe there's a way i can apply either MN or fed exemptions that exempt future tax returns? doubtful, but hey. i can try.

Well, another thing to consider...though trustee's certainly hold a lot of power, they *are* also human.

yeah i'm pretty sure i'll just be reworking my filing at this point, amending the expenses to show my increased expenses, amending the assets to update my perceived value with actual appraised value of items, amending the statement of financial affairs because i realized last night i forgot to complete #1 and #2 (sigh), and amending the matrix to add qwest as a creditor because while i'm current on my wireless plan with them, they were not telling me (until this past week when one of them happened to mention) that i had $385 still due on the old landline (tied to my business).

i asked why i hadn't received that bill and he didn't know, so he sent a duplicate. guess we'll see if qwest interrupts my wireless due to their being included...i'm not sure if i'm able to add a creditor after the 341 - i'll have to dig around on that too. seems i've read you can add creditors up to discharge. just seems weird they won't have the same allotment of time to dispute.

I found this, it may help (good info from HHM and FreshLikeADaisy):

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=23876 As far as not having the same amount of time to object, as HHM says in that thread, they can request an extension of time if they want to.

all of this said, i'm still glad i filed pro se because a) i can only be upset with myself for not doing the paperwork right and i can also be forgiving because well, this isn't my day job, and b) i saw the complete a$$hattery of the attorneys representing people at my 341; one guy didn't even show up in time to represent his senior citizen clients. i felt like i was watching the poor old guy lose years off of his lifespan as he worried about whether or not their attorney would get there in time. glad i didn't shell out $2500 for that.

Lawyers are human too, and they all seem to run the range of "human-ry" lol! the last one I met with was wonderful and very knowledgeable. If I could afford it, I'd hire him in a second. The first law firm I saw....couldn't answer any of my questions, basic, simple questions, without "looking that up" and getting back to me. I also got very vague answers when I *did* get them.

I think going pro se isn't for everyone, but for some of us it's doable. Even if you make a few mistakes along the way, I've read numerous posts where attorneys made mistakes on cases also!

i can do this, i just don't know how. but i can learn, and even better, i can come here where lots of people are willing to share their experiences and input - can't thank the forum enough!!! :big hug:

Yes, you CAN do this...and in fact you ARE!

[soleprop]

Why not adjust your tax witholdings to be sure you don't get a refund for the trustee to take? If you owe a couple hundred dollars at the end of the year it's even better.

I've done it before and it's not rocket science.

Keebler - thanks, i'm considering it..just feels like something i do later vs. something i can do right now (read: in the next 10 days) to fix this asset issue by the trustee's deadline.

OK, so you used the MN exemptions--if you amend and use the fed ones, would everything be about the same? How much/how did you value those?
Jewelry? Same with clothing; go garage or thrift-store valuation ( think I did $400 or $500, just to be safe). Oh, about withholding--are you self-employed or a regular employee now?

And I still wonder why all of a sudden she wants your tax return; it's not a 13, so with my assumption, shouldn't they just let it lie? The trustee did ask about my tax return, but I filed in February and it's gone...have you filed already for 2007 or do you have an extension (which is totally legal and can't be held against you)?

Tabby - great questions and support - thank you! i honestly need to sit and apply the fed exemptions to my assets and see how it comes out; like i said, i felt i was covered under the MN exemptions (everything i have fit well within the values, nothing seemed to be popping out the nonexempt side). i obviously 'did it wrong.'

books - i have about 250 that i valued at $500. but MN exemptions allow complete exemption of library (one of the reasons i opted for MN vs. fed).

jewelry - i covered in previous post (i just can't figure out how she thinks they're something she can get)

clothes - i valued at $400 but again, MN allows 100% exemption of wardrobe.

employment status: just changed from employed to self employed this past week. still doing the same job which is ending in november.

tax return - i filed and received my return in february, filed bk at the end of july. i figure if i'm unemployed from nov - dec of this year, that negates my tax return for '08 because i will have overpaid based on assumed wages throughout the year. but oy. this is stressful. she can have the returns i wouldn't care, it's the fact that the bk will drag on in nonclosed status that bugs me.

It looks to me like she was helping you as much as she could, within the law, and tipping you off. I'm not from MN and I probably can't give advice, but to have a trustee go after the tax returns for the next couple of years sounds crazy on their part.

i agree - my debts are primarily nonconsumer, and i just want to move on from that failed business attempt. this will just drag it out. hopefully she will change her mind, maybe she was just trying to scare me, maybe there's a way i can apply either MN or fed exemptions that exempt future tax returns? doubtful, but hey. i can try.

I would think the fact that your employment situation has significantly changed would more than warrant the changes. Besides, if you're routinely getting $1,500 refunded, then you're over-paying (unless it's from earned income credit, etc...which doesn't sound like that applies). Wouldn't this drastic of a change warrant amending your filing?

yeah i'm pretty sure i'll just be reworking my filing at this point, amending the expenses to show my increased expenses, amending the assets to update my perceived value with actual appraised value of items, amending the statement of financial affairs because i realized last night i forgot to complete #1 and #2 (sigh), and amending the matrix to add qwest as a creditor because while i'm current on my wireless plan with them, they were not telling me (until this past week when one of them happened to mention) that i had $385 still due on the old landline (tied to my business).

i asked why i hadn't received that bill and he didn't know, so he sent a duplicate. guess we'll see if qwest interrupts my wireless due to their being included...i'm not sure if i'm able to add a creditor after the 341 - i'll have to dig around on that too. seems i've read you can add creditors up to discharge. just seems weird they won't have the same allotment of time to dispute.

all of this said, i'm still glad i filed pro se because a) i can only be upset with myself for not doing the paperwork right and i can also be forgiving because well, this isn't my day job, and b) i saw the complete a$$hattery of the attorneys representing people at my 341; one guy didn't even show up in time to represent his senior citizen clients. i felt like i was watching the poor old guy lose years off of his lifespan as he worried about whether or not their attorney would get there in time. glad i didn't shell out $2500 for that.

i can do this, i just don't know how. but i can learn, and even better, i can come here where lots of people are willing to share their experiences and input - can't thank the forum enough!!! :big hug:

[No Gravy]

i can't imagine she'd smile on that but....it'll have to happen.

I would think the fact that your employment situation has significantly changed would more than warrant the changes. Besides, if you're routinely getting $1,500 refunded, then you're over-paying (unless it's from earned income credit, etc...which doesn't sound like that applies).

i've become an independent contractor (within the last week), so i'll be using the 1099 and will have to manage my own tax payments. anyone have any advice here? this will be my first time doing so, and while it would seem i have more money coming in (thanks to not having to line a consulting firm's pockets) i will also have to pay my full health ins. premiums ($259/month) and my full tax obligations. i don't receive my first paycheck under this new setup for a month so i didn't mention it to the trustee (as it is happening well after the 341). also the current work i'm doing is only slated to run through november at the latest, then i'm unemployed again.

Wouldn't this drastic of a change warrant amending your filing?