Engagement ring

[justbroke]

Thanks guys, thats what I was planning on doing, its just that then I realized its already listed in my renters insurance policy... so do i just say that he hasnt given it to me yet but he wanted me to put it in the policy to protect it just in case?

here's the kicker. You don't have to say anything. This is the key your lawyer will teach you. Never to elaborate, answer with yes or no. Keep it short and sweat.

The key is, I don't believe you have to disclose it, but you'll have to ask your lawyer about that. It's not like you're trying to hide property. My feeling, is that it's technically not yours, and Bankruptcy is a technical procedure.

[debtfreeplease]

Thanks guys, thats what I was planning on doing, its just that then I realized its already listed in my renters insurance policy... so do i just say that he hasnt given it to me yet but he wanted me to put it in the policy to protect it just in case?

[justbroke]

Here is a question... if you "wedding band" is exempt.. regardless of the value (not sure if that is true).. can you exempt your "wedding band" if you don't have an engagement ring? Even though your "wedding band" has a diamond?

I would give your engagement ring back to your boyfriend (because it is not paid off) and wait until after the BK and expect another proposal.

The exemption is on a wedding "ring" not a 'band", so if your wedding ring is 5 carats and costs $900,000.00 (at least in NY), it's exempt!

I like your "give it back" suggestion! Then, you get another dinner and another "on bended-knee" proposal! This time, maybe you'll say "yes" immediately, instead of "I'll think about it... but can I still wear the ring?" response!

[paintinrosesred]

Here is a question... if you "wedding band" is exempt.. regardless of the value (not sure if that is true).. can you exempt your "wedding band" if you don't have an engagement ring? Even though your "wedding band" has a diamond?

I would give your engagement ring back to your boyfriend (because it is not paid off) and wait until after the BK and expect another proposal.

[justbroke]

Of course Flamingo gives great advice and you should seek the advice of an Attorney admitted to the New York State Bar and preferably years of expeirence in Bankruptcy (not Family Law!).

I think the real key here, is that there's no equity in the asset. Let's say he purchased it from a jewelry store that starts with a K. If he were to stop paying, the store would seek to asserts it's purchase-money security interest (automatically perfected at time of purchase) and gain control over the ring, regardless of who he "gifted" it to.

I personally don't consider an engagement ring a gift, but a conditional gift. It attaches a certain agreement (quid-pro-quo) with it. If you marry me (sometime in the future), you get to wear this ring for now and keep it after the relationship is consummated.

This is why I believe that all marriages should have prenups... even if the prenup reads "we share everything".

FYI, my paltry research on this topic shows the New York (along with about 5 other States), consider it a conditional gift, and subject to repossession if the condition isn't met. I have a similar issue. I am in the middle of finalizing my prenup before we get married... before confirmation of my Plan.

[Flamingo]

It really isn't my asset though, my fiance just financed it from the jewelry store in January, he will be paying for it for a long time. It is his asset, not mine. And if he hasn't given it to me yet, but it is listed in the policy, does that still make it my asset?

Have you ever purchased a gift for someone and charged it and gave it to them? Because you are still paying on the gift, does that make it your asset? There have been wars in court over someone keeping an engagement ring when the boyfriend wants it back and lawsuits get filed. Check with your attorney as to what would apply in NY - it's only a simple question. Since it is listed on a rental insurance policy (that makes it a physical asset that has value) that lists two names so both benefit if there was any loss, theft or damage, and now you claim he hasn't given it to you yet, to get the correct information you need, ask an attorney. It is not listed on a rental policy under his name only.

[justbroke]

At my 341, it was the Chapter 7 folks who mostly were watchless. Interesting though.

[Cali]

I was told I could wear my jewelry since it was exempted, but I didn't.

Most of the people at my 341 had jewelry on.

Definitely don't wear it to the 341 meeting of creditors. As a matter of fact, don't even wear a watch. I noticed many people asking each other what time it was at my 341... LOL!

I didn't have my watch on either.

[debtfreeplease]

It really isn't my asset though, my fiance just financed it from the jewelry store in January, he will be paying for it for a long time. It is his asset, not mine. And if he hasn't given it to me yet, but it is listed in the policy, does that still make it my asset?

[Flamingo]

Check with your attorney on this. It all depends on NY exemptions, etc. You will be asked for a list of assets - since you are wearing the ring and it was given to you by someone else, it could be considered your asset. Turn this around and figure out how it would be considered if it it was your fiance who was filing and not you - I highly doubt if they would consider it to be his asset as it is not in his possession. It is in yours. Your attorney can advise you how all this will be handled. Also mention to him that the ring is listed on your renters insurance policy. Since you have it listed on there, it is an asset.

[justbroke]

Woodsprite, we do live together, we are not getting married for a year. My name is on the renters insurance, however he is listed as a non-relative resident. Does this make a difference? I wonder if I should call my insurance and have the ring taken off. Will the trustee even be looking at my renters insurance policy?

The Trustee, generally, will only look at insurance policies which protect the Debtor (life, medical, etc), and policies which protect property of the Estate (cars, homes, luxury items).

So, they won't ask for a Renter's Policy. I never showed mine. I have two Home Owner's policies and one Renter's Policy. They only asked for the Home Owner's Policies protecting the assets listed in my Plan.

I don't think you have any need for cause. Don't list it as an asset, because it isn't yours. Don't wear it to the 341, and you won't have to explain it.

[debtfreeplease]

Woodsprite, we do live together, we are not getting married for a year. My name is on the renters insurance, however he is listed as a non-relative resident. Does this make a difference? I wonder if I should call my insurance and have the ring taken off. Will the trustee even be looking at my renters insurance policy?

[justbroke]

Definitely don't wear it to the 341 meeting of creditors. As a matter of fact, don't even wear a watch. I noticed many people asking each other what time it was at my 341... LOL!

I didn't have my watch on either.

[WoodSprite]

But I just realized, I have it in my renters insurance policy, listed as a replacement value of $4200.

Argh...missed this detail! Shoot, debtfreeplease - do you guys live together? Is his name on the renter's insurance?

[WoodSprite]

Your quote is accurate for NY. However, it assumes the marriage was "consummated", but including the must be "part of" as if part of a set.

Right...sorry, I didn't make that clear. In this case, as long as they don't get married until after discharge, a case could be made that the ring belongs to her fiance, especially since he's still paying for it.

If it were me, I sure wouldn't wear it to the 341!