I hope this is not fraud!

[okiemom2008]

We bought a business truck in June with 2 0% credit cards. Bought it for 11k. We have been trying to sell it since August for 11k but have had no luck at all. We lowered it to 8k..nothing. Now we are lowering it to 5k just to get rid of it before bk so we can buy a vehicle so we have some type of transportation(this vehicle will be our only one as we are letting one go in bk that is upside down)

I am hoping that it is not considered fraud to sell it for 50% less than what we bought it for. I was thinking they won;t see it as that since we have proof it has been listed since August.

[justbroke]

We bought a business truck in June with 2 0% credit cards. Bought it for 11k. We have been trying to sell it since August for 11k but have had no luck at all. We lowered it to 8k..nothing. Now we are lowering it to 5k just to get rid of it before bk so we can buy a vehicle so we have some type of transportation(this vehicle will be our only one as we are letting one go in bk that is upside down)

I am hoping that it is not considered fraud to sell it for 50% less than what we bought it for. I was thinking they won;t see it as that since we have proof it has been listed since August.

It could be an avoidable transfer, if you don't sell it for it's current market value.

Make sure you look at Kelley Blue Book (KBB) or Edmunds (Edmunds.com) or NADA for the value.

Worse case is that the Trustee thinks that you didn't get enough for it and attempts to avoid the transfer (basically get the truck back), so that the Trustee can sell it. However, that's absolute worse case.

This isn't a fraud problem... it's a transfer problem. The reason is, that you technically own the truck and there is no lien on it. That makes it property of the Estate.

I want to add that it could be constructive fraud (a fraudulent transfer) if you were insolvent at the time... like selling it within 90 days of Bankruptcy and not receiving market value.

[okiemom2008]

It could be an avoidable transfer, if you don't sell it for it's current market value.

Make sure you look at Kelley Blue Book (KBB) or Edmunds (Edmunds.com) or NADA for the value.

Worse case is that the Trustee thinks that you didn't get enough for it and attempts to avoid the transfer (basically get the truck back), so that the Trustee can sell it. However, that's absolute worse case.

This isn't a fraud problem... it's an transfer problem. The reason is, that you technically own the truck and there is no lien on it. That makes it property of the Estate.

I was trying to find somewhere what it is worth but since it is a step van I could not find the value.

[justbroke]

I was trying to find somewhere what it is worth but since it is a step van I could not find the value.

Edmunds.com (http://edmunds.com) doesn't have it?

[magyar123]

Could be considered fraud. You got rid of an assett that was likely to be stolen from you by the trustee/system,
The fact that you purchased the vehicle with two credit cards which you included in your filing doesn't really matter because June was 7 months ago.

[okiemom2008]

Could be considered fraud. You got rid of an assett that was likely to be stolen from you by the trustee/system,
The fact that you purchased the vehicle with two credit cards which you included in your filing doesn't really matter because June was 7 months ago.

And on top of that I was not sure if we could use it as our vehicle exemption since if we do not sell it, it will be our only vehicle.
Right now we have it and a Durango but letting the Durango go back. So we would have to use our vehicle exemption on it and the equity(who decides what that is?) towards our 60k allowed exemptions. But it is not a vehicle you drive to work. Think UPS trucks...huge box trucks

[justbroke]

I updated my prior post. The key to fraudulent transfers are timing and whether you received market value. It's all about assets and what you did with them.

Again, I think that using the KBB/NADA value would not bring this up. This is not actual fraud, it's called constructive fraud if you didn't get the proper market value for the truck.

[okiemom2008]

I updated my prior post. The key to fraudulent transfers are timing and whether you received market value. It's all about assets and what you did with them.

Again, I think that using the KBB/NADA value would not bring this up. This is not actual fraud, it's called constructive fraud if you didn't get the proper market value for the truck.

Could I just use it as our vehicle exemption?

[justbroke]

Could I just use it as our vehicle exemption?

If you still have the asset, why not. However, vehicle exemptions are that great. I think the highest exemption I've read is California's which is like $2.2K.

If you're using an unused homestead exemption or wildcard exemption, that may work. If it's a work truck, maybe tools of the trade (but they usually aren't generous with that exemption).

Do you really need it?

[okiemom2008]

If you still have the asset, why not. However, vehicle exemptions are that great. I think the highest exemption I've read is California's which is like $2.2K.

If you're using an unused homestead exemption or wildcard exemption, that may work. If it's a work truck, maybe tools of the trade (but they usually aren't generous with that exemption).

Do you really need it?

Don't need it at all because we don't use it since it is a tool truck. We have Texas exemptions which for vehicles it is one per person with drivers license.The reason we need it is to sell it to get a vehicle so we can get to work.

[justbroke]

Don't need it at all because we don't use it since it is a tool truck. We have Texas exemptions which for vehicles it is one per person with drivers license.The reason we need it is to sell it to get a vehicle so we can get to work.

I see what you are doing now. You're really substituting the asset. If you're selling it, you need to get market value. In any case, you'll just be substituting it, so you'd still need to exempt the value on your petition.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but maybe you could wait in order to do this (post 341... post discharge?). I mean, if you are a no-asset case, and you surrender the car, but keep it until the last minute, maybe you can swap the truck for a newish car later.

Of course, I'm just thinking out loud. I've never tried this.

[okiemom2008]

I see what you are doing now. You're really substituting the asset. If you're selling it, you need to get market value. In any case, you'll just be substituting it, so you'd still need to exempt the value on your petition.

I don't seeing anything wrong with that, but maybe you could wait in order to do this (post 341... post discharge?). I mean, if you are a no-asset case, and you surrender the car, but keep it until the last minute, maybe you can swap the truck for a newish car later.

Of course, I'm just thinking out loud. I've never tried this.

Ok, thanks! Of course it would be easier to just sell it and buy another one but probably a better decision to wait and hope that it qualifies for the vehicle exemption since it is not really a "typical" vehicle.

thanks again!

[Never_Again]

Try www.tooltrucks.com

You can check the sold listings...

Tell me the year, make, and who upfitted it, and I can give you a pretty good idea.

You can find the value of P-30 Step van on Edmunds, but not the value of the upconversion.

I do have some experience with tooltrucks.