Did my ex girlfrield commit fraud? Should I report or...?

[CarrieOakey]

Simply put:

Any money you paid her outside of court-ordered support is legally considered a gift. It doesn't matter if you noted on the checks that it was for child support; outside of a court-order it's a gift. You could have Perry Mason and Vincent Bugliosi on your legal team and they still wouldn't be able to change that (sad but true) factoid. Is this fair? In my opinion, absolutely not. But it is what it is.

Also, child support is meant to reimburse the CP for monies they've already spent on raising your child; her bk has absolutely nothing to do with how much you pay. It's entirely possible that she doesn't have to count child support in her bk filing (I've seen this done twice, both in Ch 7 cases).

You could petition the courts for a modification of CS, but it could go either way. HER finances will have little, if any, bearing.

ETA: her declaring BK does not necessarily indicate an increase in income at all. It's a decrease in expenses, yes, but not an increase in income - this is generally the way family courts view the situation.

[BkinTX]

Raising a child is expensive.

[oneklub]

I'm not trying to bust your chops, I promise, and it is good to keep track of all this like you've been doing in case it becomes an issue in the future.

Unless it's causing you a great deal of hardship right now, I would let it go since you did say she is taking excellent care of your child.

Or, I suppose, I could take care of him myself (I have a friend who is a GREAT single father who has custody of his child--very hard but rewarding work).

[oneklub]

Maybe you should casually mention to the mother of your child that since she filed bankruptcy and no longer has to pay $100,000 of debt that she discharged that you want the child support reduced. $900 seems quite a bit to me.

LOL...I get your drift. And, considering that most children I know are raised on much less, I think you have a point. (And it's good to get some confirmation of that from a mom, "OregonMom.")

Seriously, the danger here lies in alienating her and damaging my relationship with my son.

The best thing, I think, would be for her to split with me the expenses she claimed in her bankruptcy petition...but that would mean that she would get much less money from me. (If you are interested, go to a child support calculator for any state and put some numbers in. You may be amazed at what is mandated by the courts...)

[Flamingo]

This is oh so simple. It is apparent she did not want you to know about the BK because if you did, you would go for a reduction of child support. Child support is determined by your State Family Court. Since she now has an increase in her income, you should have a reduction in child support. If the situation was turned around and you had the increase in funds available and decrease in expenses, you can bet she would go for an increase.

Now, what you have to personally figure out why she kept all this from you as the father of her child and also supporting the child. There is more to this than meets the eye. We can't make personal decisions for you as to what to do...this is something you are going to have to figure out on your own after getting several areas of looking at your situation.

Easiest way out of this? Marry her! :-)

[SobStory]

Oneklub, are you filing bankruptcy? No? Did you register on this forum for the sole purpose of discussing your ex-girlfriend's bankruptcy? If so, it's a little creepy.

[BkinTX]

I'm not trying to bust your chops, I promise, and it is good to keep track of all this like you've been doing in case it becomes an issue in the future.

Unless it's causing you a great deal of hardship right now, I would let it go since you did say she is taking excellent care of your child.

[oneklub]

Her expenses don't really have any bearing on your obligation to pay.

Definitely correct!

But the expenses for the child have a direct bearing on HOW MUCH I should pay. And the expenses she lists in the petition suggest that the court ordered me to pay too much.

But again, I agree. The obligation to pay is there. No doubt.

[oneklub]

I can say this much - my lawyer said if I received cash gifts from family or friends, that is not the same as income. While you didn't exactly give some of the money as a "gift", some of what you gave her might not be considered regular income. Also, when one files, the courts are looking at average income in the 6 months before the filing date, so if you were not making court ordered support payments to her in that time before she filed, that may be why it's not on the paperwork. The thing is, though, since you are not one of the creditors she owes money to, it is unlikely you would recover any money even if you did "turn her in". You may be able to get some leverage in family court hearings, but I can't really say.

My husband and I went through a lot of crap with child support for his daughter and I think there are some serious flaws in the system as far as this goes. Children need to be supported, but forcing a parent to pay more than they can reasonably afford doesn't work either. I have sympathy for your situation.

Hmm...thanks. That IS a very interesting point you make about "gifts" versus "income." Without getting into legalities, the money I sent her before bankruptcy cannot be considered a gift. It was clearly labeled as "child support." Any good lawyer would tell me that unless it was paid by check and labeled as support there is a danger it could be considered a gift. It wasn't a gift. As far as recovering the money...well, it's less about that and more about possible perjury.

Then, there is the nagging line on Schedule I - "Describe any increase or decrease in income reasonably anticipated to occur within the year following the filing of this document." Her answer: "None." That's hard for me to accept seeing as I am obviously the father and she definitely would be getting support (in addition to funds I was already providing). Like I said earlier, if we go to court again this matter will come up. And if she is caught off-guard it will be bad for both of us.

All that aside, thank you for your personal story and your empathy. I appreciate it. If you have further thoughts, I welcome them.

[BkinTX]

Her expenses don't really have any bearing on your obligation to pay.

[Recessionist]

I can say this much - my lawyer said if I received cash gifts from family or friends, that is not the same as income. While you didn't exactly give some of the money as a "gift", some of what you gave her might not be considered regular income. Also, when one files, the courts are looking at average income in the 6 months before the filing date, so if you were not making court ordered support payments to her in that time before she filed, that may be why it's not on the paperwork. The thing is, though, since you are not one of the creditors she owes money to, it is unlikely you would recover any money even if you did "turn her in". You may be able to get some leverage in family court hearings, but I can't really say.

My husband and I went through a lot of crap with child support for his daughter and I think there are some serious flaws in the system as far as this goes. Children need to be supported, but forcing a parent to pay more than they can reasonably afford doesn't work either. I have sympathy for your situation.

[OregonMom]

Maybe you should casually mention to the mother of your child that since she filed bankruptcy and no longer has to pay $100,000 of debt that she discharged that you want the child support reduced. $900 seems quite a bit to me.

[oneklub]

Based on the information you offered, it isn't clear if she was untruthful or not. If you have something to gain from this monetarily that you can't live without, that is one thing, but otherwise it just seems like you are angry about your situation with your ex. That's my humble opinion.

Thanks for the comment.

You're right. I have no idea if she was untruthful. But the numbers on the forms appear incorrect.

Can you offer alternative explanations for the numbers that indicate that she was not untruthful?

And yes, as I said, it is hard for me financially now ($920/month is, for me, substantial).

[oneklub]

Personally, and I say this because you posted for opinions so I suspect you might expect to hear this. I feel you might be feeling bitter and I would probably feel the same way. Turning her in says more about you than it does about her. Also, at least in my case, my lawyer and trustee are all over EVERYTHING and nothing got by them and it would be difficult to pull one over on them. You have to decide if you are going to let this one go and get over it or if you can live with yourself after dragging the both of you through more drama.

I appreciate all opinions, gingerbug. And, yes, I expected to hear opinions similar to yours. Child support, bankruptcy, and family relations are hot-button issues.

Thank you for commenting.

[Recessionist]

Based on the information you offered, it isn't clear if she was untruthful or not. If you have something to gain from this monetarily that you can't live without, that is one thing, but otherwise it just seems like you are angry about your situation with your ex. That's my humble opinion.