Did my ex girlfrield commit fraud? Should I report or...?

[Logan]

You know the saying: All's fair in love and war.

Would you have paid less child support if she had declared BK sooner or had told the judge about her BK filing? If so I would press this issue.

If your Child support would be the same whether or not she declared BK I would let it go.

Maybe you could start a conversation saying I want to go back to court to have the judge revisit the child support since you have not been completely honest with your financial situation.

Logan

[sophia]

I don't think $900 a month child support for a child any age is enough.

You should not report her just because there is a "possibility" of fraud.

I think you should increase the support another $300 a month.
On top of that you should voluntarily buy shoes, clothes, gifts etc. every month.

And before you ask, no, I AM NOT being sarcastic. $900 a month for an infant is nothing, especially when you factor in food, formula, diapers, daycare, babysitters, time off work, etc. etc.


Move on and get over her and just let her raise your kid with a clean slate and a brighter debt free future.

[AlreadyFiled]

if you feel you want your child support payments reduced then just deal with that part only. You can have your payment amount modified with the courts but other then that, let her personal business w bankruptcy go. Leave that part alone, its her business. The child support payment modification is your business, and that alone.

[TheAbyss]

Darn, I got into this thread too late. In case you're wondering, I would have suggested ripping her a new one. She'd probably do the same to you, if the situation were reversed.

Anyway, good luck.

[oneklub]

Thank you all for your responses.

The thread seems to be veering off topic now (more about child support legalities and relationships instead of my original question which focused on bankruptcy and reporting requirements). The comments are helpful, but at this point I think I've moved the conversation away from what this forum is for -- bankruptcy.

I apologize.

Again, thanks for your help and wish all of us luck!

[jennordhavn]

Actually, now that I think of it, it's $900 from me and $900 from her (50/50 split). That means, theoretically, that she should be paying a total $1800/month to raise our infant son. I find that hard to believe.

That is not how child support works. Child support is based on the income of both parents and the percentage of time each parent has the child is his/her custody. Expenses are not factored in (except for daycare and health care). It also takes into account your filing status for taxes. So if you make significantly more than she does, you would pay more for the child (although it may be a similar percentage of income). For example (I am using fake numbers just to show a simple example): If you made $50k and she made $25k, you may pay $10k per year for the child and she would contribute (theoretically, of course) $5k. It's not a 50/50 split. The theory behind this is that the child should benefit from the lifestyle of both parents. It doesn't matter if she only spends $500/mo. on the child in actual expenses. The entire lifestyle is more expensive. Housing, food, health care, activities, etc. are all more expensive when you have a child.

[Flamingo]

Your points are reasonable. Tell me what you think of my responses:

1)"Snooping" - not really. Bankruptcy information is public (in some communities it is posted in a public forum -- community center, journal, etc). Secondly, we are obligated by court order to disclose financial information to each other every year. Thirdly, in the court "discovery" phase, attorneys MUST be given a true account of income and expense information. And finally, several times she promised to send income/expense information to me but never has. She will consider it "snooping" cause you will be looking this up behind her back when you know if she wanted you to know, she would tell you. You yourself state initially that she does not know that you know and when you tell her you actually joined a site and had to pay to view the information, duck because the fan is going to make it fly. Public information or not. All that information does not appear in the newspaper - you have to go look for it.

2) If I file for a change in support, as you mention, this bankruptcy will be brought up in the discovery phase...unless we discuss this issue beforehand, that would blindside her and could expose her to serious legal trouble. That is up to you as it is a personal decision. If you did not know about this BK, how would your relationship be with her now? Are you more worried about yourself and your funds? Your relationship with her or that she could have provided fraudulent information for her BK? Your initial post suggests your worry about fraud...did she really do that or as another poster suggested did she provide all the correct information she had and listed figures under attorney guidance?

3) For the sake of my mental health, I try (TRY) to confront most issues head on. I see productive confrontation as a difficult but necessary part of any honest and healthy relationship. Again, your own personal decision. You can get all the advice in the world from 100 different people but you will do what you want to do.

4) I think the discharge was very helpful to her. But, if it was not done honestly...well, she used Chapter 7 but perhaps Chapter 13 is an option (assuming the support amount put her over the limit for Chapter 7...this is conjecture, though).

Again, you worry about honesty and fraud....as I mentioned previously this will always bother you unless you let it go or bring it up and let it out in the open. You are concerned about saving money now that her expenses are less; you personally have to figure out how you want to approach this if at all. You have excellent advice on this forum; I know your funds are low but if this continues to bother you, consult a counselor to get a professional opinion.

[oneklub]

I found a post where a person asked if child support is income. Very Interesting.

http://www.bkforum.com/archive/index.php/t-34174.html

Luci

That's a great link, Luci.

Thanks.

[queenfluff]

I wouldn't do anything because there is a child that will definatley be hurt by all this. You hurt the mom and you hurt the child. Even though I am not a single mom and have no kids (by choice) I can still imagine how hard it is. Even my married friends with kids - how complicated their lives are. A split family must be even worse.

I don't know what your ex is like but I am sure she is doing this because she (like all of us on this forum) is in financial duress. She is stressed and worried esp for your son. It could be possible that she didn't purposely miss those things on her paperwork. Maybe her lawyer screwed up?

If you report her, it will really mess things up for her and your son and cause a rift between you three for the rest of your lives. I think reporting her is going to cause so many more cons for her and your son and few pros for you. She will be mad that you are "checking" on her business like that. You guys aren't married so you except for your son - you have no claim over her life.

No offense to you as you seem like you are a decent guy, but you seem to be wasting a lot of energy "checking up" on her and you guys are not together anymore. Maybe you don't care about her anymore but for your son's sake, don't do it. You want him to have a good life right? You don't want him to be hurt right? So nib it in the bud. Lots of people on here look at BK as a private thing - and if they tell anyone it is only their closest family members and friends. Give her some privacy here. Why are you wasting 8 cents a page on Pacer to spy? I know you say they are public records and they are - I don't really think they were made public for exs to check up on their exs and see how they can cause them grief.

If it is still bugging you for whatever reason (money or whatever), why don't you call her and calmly talk to her about? Just say you were curious to what is happening with her and you are interested for your son's sake. That way she might see you as more of a concerned and helpful father than a meddling ex. Discuss your money problems too - maybe you guys can work something out.

I know you talk about how you can't afford the high payment for your son and I sympathize with you - but not only does your ex have to worry about money like you do (and obviously she is very worried since she is doing CH 7 - you are not doing it so you can't know what it feels like really to do BK) but she has to worry about raising your son and all the problems that goes with that? Give her a break, eh? Just imagine what it must be like for her too - plus what it is like for your son - not to have a full-time dad around. And all to that the stress of BK. I am sure he doesn't need his mom to be more stressed out than she now. And trust us on this forum, BK is WAY stressful!!!

Believe me your ex will get lots of much needed relief from this which will benefit her and your son - just filing can make you feel like the boulder finally rolled off your shoulder. Don't put a wrench in her plans to better her and your sons life.

I wish you good luck and I hope you and your ex find a solution. I am sure you are both well-meaning people who want the best for your son. But, sheesh, please stop "spying" on her BK on Pacer. I am sorry, and no offense to you personally, but it is just plain creepy (as a woman if I thought one of my ex's was checking up on me like that I would be creeped out!). If you want to know more about it, talk to her and keep yourself busy with your own life and focus on your son.

Maybe I missed it reading the old posts as this thread is pretty long but how did you find out about this in the first place to want to start peaking on PACER?

[jeb]

Lol...yeah, it hurt my eyes, too. I changed it to red and I'll try to delete the yellow post.

And just what is wrong with black? - jb

[OregonMom]

I come from a family with many divorces and child support issues. One that seemed to work out the best was with my step mom and her ex. They had two boys together and basically split the time equally and nobody paid child support. The boys pretty much stayed half the week at one place and half at the other. They lived close by so it worked out great. When the boys needed something big they worked out the cost together.
The more you take your son the less support you have to pay, my brother in law only has his kids every other weekend so he only gets them like 10% of the year so he has to pay his ex 90% of child support costs. If you were doing 50/50 you would have your son 50% of the time.

[oneklub]

LOL...I get your drift. And, considering that most children I know are raised on much less, I think you have a point. (And it's good to get some confirmation of that from a mom, "OregonMom.")

Seriously, the danger here lies in alienating her and damaging my relationship with my son.

The best thing, I think, would be for her to split with me the expenses she claimed in her bankruptcy petition...but that would mean that she would get much less money from me. (If you are interested, go to a child support calculator for any state and put some numbers in. You may be amazed at what is mandated by the courts...)

Actually, now that I think of it, it's $900 from me and $900 from her (50/50 split). That means, theoretically, that she should be paying a total $1800/month to raise our infant son. I find that hard to believe.

[dingdong]

DId she file with an attorney?

Perhaps what you are reading in her petitions were prepared under attorney guidance.

She may not be commiting fraud at all, but following attorney guidelines to assure a best fit for a CH7.


I wouldn't blindside your EX. Being a single parent is stressful enough as it is.

You need to consider a few things before you start a confrontation with your ex.

Your ex faces ( no matter what anyone says) a lifetime of being considered a single woman with "baggage". I am not trying to say that children are "baggage", they are the biggest blessing in anyone's life, but when it comes to future dating/commitments, often single women with kids are kind of put into a different class from the perspective of single men. It usually takes a very special man to take on the challenges of raising someone elses kid (and kudos to those out there that do). Men with children don't seem to have quite the stigma of "the single father" that women have. SHe has to worry about who she brings into her home, whether she should introduce your son to a new potential mate in her life and she is most likely going to have to hold any future mate to a higher standard and more scrutiny than if she didn't have a child in the home.

She will have work issues. When your son is ill and can't go to childcare, your ex will be the one staying home to care for him. Your ex will also be subject to more illness as most moms with children in childcare, get sick more often because the kids bring home those little germies and bring them home to mom.

She is going to be the one staying up with him at night when he can't sleep, dealing with the day to day stresses of being a parent, etc.

Would you be spending 700/month to care for your son if you had sole custody? 700 is not a lot of money to provide for the care and feeding and day to day necessities of a small chld. I believe you mentioned that she spends 700/month in day care, I am assuming so that she can work. IF you split that amount, you are basically gving her 350.00/month to care and feed for your kid. That is 87.50 a week to feed, entertain, clothe, medicate, drive around, diaper a child.

Maybe you should ask yourself, would you be willing to pay someone 700.00 month to provide the absolute best care, unconditional love and support in your home?

Makes that 700.00 seem like a good deal to me.

BTW, I am a single parent, succesfully raised two kids without a dime in child support. And my kids suffered by not having their mom there all the time because I have had to work two jobs to be able to pay the rent, feed, clothe, pay for health care, etc. Would I have loved to do things differently, you bet, but it didn't work out that way. Sure it has been hard. And you know who would have benefitted from a little child support, my kids, cause that extra money could have been used to maybe work one or two less shifts per month, or maybe a weekend trip now and then. Or just a little less stress by being able to pay a utilty w/o getting a shutoff notice and scrambling to get money to pay it.

Look at the 700.00 as an investment in your son. He is worth every penny, and I assure you your ex is paying a lot more than that to care for your son every month. Be thankful he has a mom who cares and a dad in his life and do your very best to get along with your ex, cause the friction you are thinking of causing is only going to affect your son negatively. He needs to know he has two parents that get along and are looking after his best interests. Starting problems with your ex is going to come back to bite you in the ass and it may be something you will have a hard time correcting once you do decide to become adversarial with her.

If you are having a hard time making the payment, talk to her, lay out your finances honestly in front of her and say, this is why the 700.00 is too much for me. What do you think about trying to get it reduced until I am making better income. Tell her you want to do the best thing for your son, but do it in a way that is non adversarial. It will work out so much better in the end for you, and you will have a happy and mentally healthy son, which is/should be your one and only goal.

Please don't blindside her, the stress it will cause will be inadvertantly transferred to your son, and I am sure you don't want that.

Just my opinion from a single mom's perspective.

[oneklub]

You are between a rock and a hard place. If you do what you feel you should do, it could create more issues; if you don't do anything, it will weigh on your brain for eternity. If you never found out this information or had access to the information via PACER, what would you be doing? She is her own person, you are your own person. She does not want you to know certain things she does, and I am sure you don't want her to know certain things you do and it appears the child is not suffering from lack of funds or care. If you feel you are paying too much child support and felt that before you saw all the information as to her BK, you can always file for a reduction for child support and see what happens and what information she provides compared to what you now have. Otherwise, you could be in for a big confrontation when she finds out you know all this and snooped out her case via PACER. As to reporting her for fraud? Same thing - big confrontation. You have to decide if calling her out on this situation is worth it in the long run or if it bothers you as to what she did, you can find out if you can somehow anonymously report the matter to the Trustee for review.

Again, marrying her and keeping quiet is the easiest way out but after she eliminated $100,000 of debt, I very much see your point...I would not want to be in your shoes - best of luck to you!

Your points are reasonable. Tell me what you think of my responses:

1)"Snooping" - not really. Bankruptcy information is public (in some communities it is posted in a public forum -- community center, journal, etc). Secondly, we are obligated by court order to disclose financial information to each other every year. Thirdly, in the court "discovery" phase, attorneys MUST be given a true account of income and expense information. And finally, several times she promised to send income/expense information to me but never has.

2) If I file for a change in support, as you mention, this bankruptcy will be brought up in the discovery phase...unless we discuss this issue beforehand, that would blindside her and could expose her to serious legal trouble.

3) For the sake of my mental health, I try (TRY) to confront most issues head on. I see productive confrontation as a difficult but necessary part of any honest and healthy relationship.

4) I think the discharge was very helpful to her. But, if it was not done honestly...well, she used Chapter 7 but perhaps Chapter 13 is an option (assuming the support amount put her over the limit for Chapter 7...this is conjecture, though).

[B65]

I agree

what is best for the child is what should come first. My daughters lived 16 hr flight from their dad and hardly saw him, I just sometimes think it would have been so much nicer for the children if their parents had lived in the same area and could have spent equal time with both, for their sake... they have no bond with their dad at all now... but you have to make the best of what you have and put the children's well being first.