IRS contacts me before automatic stay is lifted...

[JRScott]

I'm not sure if the IRS is in violation, however in normal cases of violation you have to prove a pattern of disobedience of the law, which generally takes more than one violation. Thus considering its only one letter I wouldn't press the issue at this time.

[music12]

i agree with HMM that it would be much harder to get punitive damages against the IRS than against a private creditor. and even with a private creditor, it takes them a few months to stop sending statements, so statements do continue to arrive in the mail for a couple of months and it's generally not a big deal. if they pursue it more aggressively, though, it is a different story.

[HHM]

chad, that makes sense about the totality of circumstances. your post kind of answers my question because if you notice, the damages were punitive, not compensatory. for punitive damages, you don't have to show actual damages.

so maybe HMM was saying that emotional distress was not actual damages, which makes me sad, but since we have an example of getting punitive damages even without showing any actual damages, i'm happy.

You will most likely not get punitive damages with the IRS based on merely a letter they sent you. Again, since this is the IRS, it may not be a violation. Are the taxes they are contacting you about dischargeable?

[justbroke]

HHM, is right. Emotional distress, by itself, does not support an award of actual damages.

A debtor’s emotional distress must be moremust present some medical or other corroborating evidence showing that she suffered more than fleeting and inconsequential distress, embarrassment, humiliation, and annoyance. Aiello v. Providian Fin. Corp., 231 B.R. 684, 691 (Bankr. N.D. Ill. 1999)

[music12]

chad, that makes sense about the totality of circumstances. your post kind of answers my question because if you notice, the damages were punitive, not compensatory. for punitive damages, you don't have to show actual damages.

so maybe HMM was saying that emotional distress was not actual damages, which makes me sad, but since we have an example of getting punitive damages even without showing any actual damages, i'm happy.

[chad9162]

HMM, what are examples of actual damage that can be caused by violation of the automatic stay?

A one time violation is not damaging enough but something like this...


Tonya Denise Price owed money to Navy Federal Credit Union before she filed for bankruptcy. She hired a lawyer, who contacted the credit union before as well as after the case was filed. His message was clear: do not contact my client about her debt because it is in violation of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.

The message could not have been clearer, but apparently it was not heard. In fact, Navy Federal Credit Union contacted Ms. Price 10 times by phone, twice by mail, and once by coming to her home.

What happened next is a study in good lawyering. Ms. Price’s lawyer, Robert Grossbart of Baltimore, MD, filed the case of Price v. Navy Federal Credit Union, in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Maryland. The case asserted that Navy Federal Credit Union violated Ms. Price’s rights under the U.S. Bankruptcy Code, which prohibits contact by creditors after the filing of a bankruptcy case.

On January 9, 2008, Bankruptcy Judge Wendelin Lipp order Navy Federal Credit Union to not only pay Ms. Price’s legal fees of $3,464.50 but also ordered this creditor to pay punitive damages in the amount of $10,000 for the blatant disregard of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.

It's not a singular event but totality that would create damages. Calling and showing up at your house sounds damaging. Getting something in the mail once or twice. I don't think it'd be reasonable.

[TEW]

HMM, what are examples of actual damage that can be caused by violation of the automatic stay?

I think you need to figure out if there was a violation before you figure out if you were damaged.

[music12]

HMM, what are examples of actual damage that can be caused by violation of the automatic stay?

[chad9162]

i sure wouldn't want to piss off the irs, or give them any reason to pay more attention to me in any future years.

That would be like sticking a splintery wooden stick doused with tobasco up a manic gorillas butt.

Not pretty.

exactly!

[dingdong]

I sure wouldn't want to piss off the IRS, or give them any reason to pay more attention to me in any future years.

That would be like sticking a splintery wooden stick doused with tobasco up a manic gorillas butt.

Not pretty.

[HHM]

emotional distress IS actual damage!

otherwise, any creditor would violate the automatic stay and then claim that there were no damages - "hey, we just sent them letters in the mail, no harm done". and they'd get away with it. i don't feel that's what the law intended.

Actually, you can't claim emotional distress without actual, physical damage.

[music12]

ah, i see! so it's emotional distress for the poor creditor now!

[eddiep]

cut it out, don't you know how desperate they must be to get their hands on your hard earned money! How much did they spend to bail out the banks? Somebody has to pay for it

[music12]

emotional distress IS actual damage!

otherwise, any creditor would violate the automatic stay and then claim that there were no damages - "hey, we just sent them letters in the mail, no harm done". and they'd get away with it. i don't feel that's what the law intended.

[HHM]

Without more context, who can say if this is a violation.