Anyone here good at Pacer searching and want to help me?

[TeacherMomma]

I still believe that your best defense would be to itemize each loan down the the date it was created, the original balance, the current balance, the maturity date and whether you have any opportunity to defer payments or go into forbearance. For all those which you can't go into deferment/forbearance add them up and show that these are current obligations which are "contractually due in the next 60 months". Therefore they comprise installment debt that is due and are allowed expenses.

Let the Trustee fight that they are not expenses "contractually due in the next 60 months"... since you can't get a forbearance, tell him how you're supposed to pay them. Indicate that a hypothetical Chapter 11, would have you paying them anyhow, in Plan, and the net result is a back-door Chapter 7, and Congress never intended the system to work in such a way.

MSBK sums it up where I was going! Make them prove it!

Well, that's my thought.

Yes, your first paragraph will be re-done for the judge, because I already submitted that as requested to the UST, almost exactly what you posted. This whole thing MAKES NO SENSE as I end up in what amounts to a Ch 7 anyhow! I will be paying house, cars, nesc. household expenses and student loans in a Ch 11 - because there won't be any money left for anyone else! So how is that different than a 7? It is isn't in my case.....just more $$ on conversion fees, and what will probably end up in me retaining an atty I cannot afford (Yes, there ARE some people here who really cannot afford atty, contrary to some moderators opinions)....and on a side note to that, there are like ZERO attorneys who will take a Pro Se Ch 7 that is a conversion to an 11, that is as complicated as mine. One of the Ch 7 consults I had wants almost 19K to do an 11 for me. Why would I not pay that towards student loans???

[justbroke]

I am speaking of the UST, not my case trustee. Just to be clear. I understand that my judge will be deciding this and that is what I am preparing - a response to the UST's motion to dismiss under 707B, and the abuse he is stating is that I have disposable income because he won't accept my SLs as an expense.

It's still not the U.S. Trustee to determine what an allowed expense is. I would still stay on target and keep re-iterating that these are contractually due expenses, where there's no capability of deferment/forbearance. That the Code is clear, and it's on Schedule J, for a debtor to claim installment debt as an expense.

Keep on message that the U.S. Trustee argues that SLs are not an expense, only because they can be deferred or go into forbearance during active Bankruptcy, but your loans do not have that option... so they are contractually due. What makes it worse, is that they are also non-dischargeable which actually does give them a different treatment when it comes to the general unsecured creditors class.

(Okay, I'm just making stuff up now. )

[TeacherMomma]

Still, no authority.

Now, ideally, trustees should be consistent in what they object to, no doubt, but I'm not aware of anything that requires them to be.

The most recent phone consult with a local BK atty said that if I could prove they allowed it in cases with smaller loan amounts that it would show they were prejudicial against "high debt" debtors. And that if I was in a wage garnishment that they would be "allowed" because I have no choice but to quit my job to stop it, and it will only be a matter of time if the 7 is not allowed that it ends up in a wage garnishment for almost my whole paycheck.....so his comment was why make me go through the fuss of a wage garnishment, risk my job, etc - he said it was being prejudicial.

But that is just one atty, who coincidentially would not touch the case because we cannot afford to pay him upfront (I understand). Who happens to think like me. LOL

[MSbklawyer]

I will be paying house, cars, nesc. household expenses and student loans in a Ch 11 - because there won't be any money left for anyone else! So how is that different than a 7?

You are in a Chapter 11? Without an attorney?

[2manybills]

TM - Didn't the form that I sent you from Westlaw opposing a similar motion speak directly to that and to the fact that the SL was contractually due?

[TeacherMomma]

It's still not the U.S. Trustee to determine what an allowed expense is. I would still stay on target and keep re-iterating that these are contractually due expenses, where there's no capability of deferment/forbearance. That the Code is clear, and it's on Schedule J, for a debtor to claim installment debt as an expense.

Keep on message that the U.S. Trustee argues that SLs are not an expense, only because they can be deferred or go into forbearance during active Bankruptcy, but your loans do not have that option... so they are contractually due. What makes it worse, is that they are also non-dischargeable which actually does give them a different treatment when it comes to the general unsecured creditors class.

(Okay, I'm just making stuff up now. )

Haahaha, thanks.

I should clarify. While I am in BK my loans are in a suspended status accruing ungodly interest. So yes, they can be "put off" but at a hefty price that is not to my benefit to take advatange of. It would almost be as if I did not get the other debt discharged, because the interest would just have piled up and take the old debt's place!
And in speaking with the UST that is not his goal anyways (deferrment), he says the SLs would be included in an 11 payment - therefore, no money left over for Chase, MBNA, etc. So a SEVEN. That was our conversation on Friday anyways.

[justbroke]

The most recent phone consult with a local BK atty said that if I could prove they allowed it in cases with smaller loan amounts that it would show they were prejudicial against "high debt" debtors.

Yes, your response/position would always include every conceivable defense or opposition to the Motion to Dismiss.

[TeacherMomma]

You are in a Chapter 11? Without an attorney?

Nope. I am in a 7 facing dismissal on 707B. My options are to object or convert to an 11 (11 is due to debt level - Student loans). I have to object before 8/12 (but the UST said he would change the date of the hearing if I was not ready, so we'll see) or if I (for some reason) decide to convert I can do that any time before 8/26 which is my dismissal hearing date.

[TeacherMomma]

Yes, your response/position would always include every conceivable defense or opposition to the Motion to Dismiss.

So then rebutting his statement that they are not allowed in this court IS acceptable in my response, since he put it in his?

[MSbklawyer]

I'm not following you, I guess. Are you proposing to pay your student loans completely off in the 13? If not, isn't the interest going to continue to accrue anyway?

[TeacherMomma]

No, they would not be paid off in the 11, I think what the UST is thinking is a zerp payment 11, or just my house and cars and pay my SLs outside of the plan. Which is the same as what I would be getting with a 7, so why not just do it?!

We are talking 400K in SLs.

13 is not an option for me.

[MSbklawyer]

13 is not an option for me.

Neither is 11 if, as you say, you can't afford an attorney. The filing fee alone in 11 is $1000. And you would have to pay that when you convert. You also have to pay the trustee's fees in chapter 11.

You're about to step off into it really DEEEEEEP. If your 7 gets dismissed, you may not be able to refile again for 180 days to one year.

Get a bankruptcy attorney. Whatever it takes, get one.

[TeacherMomma]

I am sure that would be best, getting an atty. I know that. And I am not sure if you have read my posts about the fees they want IF they will even touch the case.

I really don't think it is an option.....moneywise.

The conversion fee is some $700, and once my plan is confirmed in an 11 (according to the UST) I will not have anymore fees as I can petition to have my case closed. So I will not have quarterly fees forever, but for a while I will.

I am not looking for an 11, trust me.

This post was more looking for help with my pending objection to the dismissal.

[2manybills]

The case I sent you spoke directly to that and SL's being considered Special Circumstance when calculating the means. I think her payments were $352 a month and they allowed it.

[TeacherMomma]

Yes! I have that still thanks!