New Schedule J..please look and give opinions

[backtoschool]

Berrymom35, I am sorry I ever tried to help.... Abusing me in pm is not a proper response in my opinion. I added you to my ignore list. I suggest you do the same with me.

[ForumReader]

Nope. Typically this will only happen if the expenses are discretionary or fall outside of the IRS guidelines.

Do a board search on "required trustee questions" to see the required questions the trustee usually asks.

Thanks I did a google search from the IE browser and found the information for the ten required questions Trustees will ask and they would be recorded.

I apologize if this is a little off from the original thread, but regarding the trustee trying to find a way to convert from CH 7 to CH 13 if he or she finds extra disposal income from the petitioner at the 341 meeting and if the total unsecured debt is let's say $80K, that $80K has to be repaid in full? Someone mentioned earlier about a 10% of the total unsecured debt, is that the max a trustee is allowed to use to fund a CH 13? Thanks.

[LSUTiger32]

Let me go on record and apologize for trying to help. I am so sorry if I am part of the reason that you think you are getting beat up. I meant nothing more than trying to help get you through this. We can all relate, so I don't think any of us are trying to make you feel bad about anything. We all just want to help you see this through. Believe me, this forum is a blessing.

[HakunaMatata]

Berrymom-

I haven't previously contributed to this thread as this is all new to me and I don't foster the knowledge to be of assistance.

From an outsider's perspective, I see you've received plenty of advice. While words and themes may differ, the majority is intended to benefit you. I understand you had a challenging 341, you're frustrated with your attorney, and you're experiencing intense stress. These factors may be skewing your perception. As it see it, others have attempted to assume a trustee stance in an effort to convey to you the potential errors in your schedule word choices and numbers. Many have offered resolutions to potential trustee issues. The shared goal has been to provide constructive criticism and assistance in an effort to make your situation as painless and red-flag-free as possible.

Take a step back, breathe, and pretend you're me. I am in the beginning stages of exploring bk and I lack understanding of 341 meetings and schedules (presently in my world, bankruptcy fosters a preschool format...incorporating numbers and the alphabet...maintaining a focus on 3-4-1, and I-J ). I intend to include the advice offered to you in my bk knowledge database. I hope you give yourself a chance to do this as well.

[jribe]

if all you wanted to hear was "looks great" then i'll say it.

Everyone here was trying to give you constructive criticism so that you don't get the book thrown at your by the trustee. If you don't want actual advice- then i DO suggest not posting. It's literally a waste of everyone's time if you don't even care enough to listen.

No one is trying to attack you or be mean. Everyone here is just trying to give you the 3rd party perspective of the trustee.

What may seem fair to you may seem outrageous to the trustee- as others have pointed out.

And no, do not contact your trustee about your lawyer. Not their job. Contact the local State Bar Assoc with concerns/complaints.

[LuciluS]

Berrymom:

I'm going to try ONE more time to get thru to you or as my mamma used to put it 'Luci, you are being hard-headed' LOL and I'm not trying to be mean to you, I'm trying to make you smile. Maybe we have beaten you done..Lord knows I didn't intend to.

I'm not questioning your Utitlity bills. If you will do as I've said in my posts, a Spreadsheet for this past year with the last month being whatever last month's income coincides with, I don't think the TT can change that. But the Burden of Proof is on YOU! not the TT or your Attorney. If you are not familiar with spreadsheets, I'll be glad to help you or I'm sure DSIG would be also. Go read her posts on the General Bankruptcy Talk. You can PM me or DSIG if you want further assistance.

Now, read this sentence very carefully please! IF you are paying self-employment taxes (which you stated you are) then You Own A Business! Plain and simple. Doesn't matter you are a Contract Writer..that's your business. Now if you didn't complete a Schedule C on your Tax Return then you are SOL on those expenses, BUT you ought to be able to claim your self-employment taxes taken right from last years tax return. Do like I said for your real estate, personal property tax and get your last year's tax return to go by for SE taxes. I think I know why you really haven't touched on this. #1 you are trying to do the 'Right Thing' in saying I don't own a Business. YOU DO if you filed self employment taxes on Schedule SE of your 2008 Federal Tax Return. I'm sure the only copy you have is at the Attorney's office. Can you lay your hands on a fax machine? If so, call the Attorney's office & ask them to fax you those 2 schedules (C & SE) & the 1st two pages of your Federal tax return. Whatever is listed on Schedule C are your business expenses. Can't get it any better than that - Plain & Simple - Documentation is your tax return. If you can't get to a fax, call Attorney's office ahead of time & tell them you will be by to pick up those 4 pages of your Tax Return. Hmm, better yet, get 2007 too. So that would be 8 pages. Average the 2 years. Again, if you need help in doing this PM me.

Personally, I think you are a Wonderful Mother and I don't blame you for allowing & promoting your kids to play sports & other extra cirricular activity. I did the same thing when my Son was little. Everyone said oh his going to be spoiled rotten. My comment was No, He maybe excessively Loved, but not spoiled. He turned out to be an Excellent Father of 3 children, A Business Owner & does Ministry Work. It just , Sweetie, don't put those expenses on your Schedule J. Only trying to help you.

Now, onto the groceries. I'm sure you probably shop at Wal-Mart Super Center and buy Everything there. If you want the TT to Not delve into this issue, please use the IRS Standards for these items. You've already stated your totals (which I didn't take the time to add em up) equals what the IRS guideline total for your family. So just use their totals. That way it's not all lumped into FOOD.

I'm sorry if I've 'beaten you down'. As most people on this forum can attest to, I try to make my posts positive, yet get the right words out so the OP will understand. Take a day or two off from this forum and look at your completed paperwork. Then, come back and re-read the posts on all 3 of your threads. Maybe, just maybe, it will click in your mind what some of us are trying to tell you.

I'm still sticking to my guns on the Utilities. If you have 12 months worth of the actual bills, then TT may question it & you have the burden of proof & that would be the simple spreadsheet.

The more paperwork you bury this TT with, the Better! That statement was made by a Moderator on this forum, but it's been so long ago, I cannot recall which one. They are only human, too & I've read where they get frustrated when you pile up paperwork & documentation as they don't make much money off of a Chapter 7. Frustrations leads to thinking 'I don't have time to go thru ALL of this paperwork, so I will pick out one expense & check it out'. You just don't know what the TT is going to do as I'm sure every case is different.

May you have a Wonderful Weekend! and will keep You and Your Family in my prayers.

Blessings and ((((BIG HUGS))))

Luci

[OhioFiler]

I've never felt a lot of positiveness here...directed at me personally...I could just be imagining it...but I get a lot of negative responses and such.....and to have to defend every dime I spend...it makes me want to step out in front of a bus. I'm sorry but most of these posts have not been kind or understanding! I feel like I've been beat up!

Perception is often contrary to reality. You are imagining.

No one expects you to defend your spending. Spend to your heart's content. Posters were offering advice after you posted a query regarding your Schedule J.

Most of these posts weren't intended to be kind or understanding...they were intended to HELP YOU!

Please don't take this stuff so personal and please don't post suicide fantasies.

[UhhhOhhh]

Did I ever say I had it all figured out? I obviously don't, but I don't understand why I'm being told my bills are too high..when that is what they are..I can't change my utility bills etc...I'm simply not worried about these as I can prove them.

None of my statements of frustration were directed at your posts...I've had some that just won't stop with the same thing over and over.....I appreciate your concern...I'm concerned too!

I do think I'm done with this forum though...posting anyway...I think I learn more when I just lurk. I've never felt a lot of positiveness here...directed at me personally...I could just be imagining it...but I get a lot of negative responses and such...sorry if you took any sort of offense but it is very hard to work as hard as we work and to love my kids as much as I do and to not want to tell my 8 year old who loves football more than he loves breakfast, lunch and dinner that he will more than likely have to turn in his pads before the first game as much as I don't...and to have to defend every dime I spend...it makes me want to step out in front of a bus. I'm sorry but most of these posts have not been kind or understanding! I feel like I've been beat up!

Wow! <shaking my head here> Now Im totally confused. First you post a complaint that NO ONE was commenting on your posts.. and now after asking everyone to chime in with their thoughts on your sched. J ... to which people KINDLY and THOUGHTFULLY have... You are seriously miffed because you dont agree with (or like ) their opinions (some of which are very educated /experienced opinions). ??? Do I have this correctly????

Perhaps therein lies your problem?
Attitude.

[LuciluS]

Berrymom:

You did include your business in your bankruptcy right? Go find the last 2 yrs. tax returns and look for 2 schedules. One is Schedule SE (self-employment tax) and the other is a Schedule C (Profit or Loss from Business).
Look at the expenses shown on that Schedule C...those are your business expenses & should be noted as such for your bankruptcy.

Also, our phone bill w/free long distance calling/dsl avg. 98.62 a month, my cell phone is $16.91 & dh's business cell phone is $73.81. In our situation, I do not believe the trustee will question the cell phone as dh is required to have one for driving all over the country. If you have kept all the utility receipts for a year, then those are your correct figures. Just make sure you have a spreadsheet noting each. My headings are Gas/Electric (I put down the date it was paid & to whom. I also used a formula & came up with an Average for the Electric & Gas & duly noted.) Phone & Cell phone (did the same thing as I just posted. We have AT&T cell phone & their bill breaks it down per phone...we do not have text messaging, so this is where I put my cell phone. (Again, did the formula & came up with an Avg.

I had one column for water, sewer & trash pickup. I have our Satellite bills listed for the last 12 mths & it comes up to $82.02 a month (might be high, but hubby said he would explain to Trustee why it is so high).

Then I have hubby's cell phone avg. of $73.81. We have the cheapest plan AT&T offers for a 2 person rate. Hubby has XM Satellite Radio of $18.15 which I'm going to talk to our BK Atty. about this expense.

One other thing I thought about is quarterly pest control and/or Annual Termite Contract which I believe you must have for either the mortgage co. or your insurance co. (cannot recall which one). Ours avgs. $36.01 a month as we have both. I have the statements to back that up.

Our BK Attorney told us that no Recreational expense is allowed. Well, with me being 100% disabled & hubby gone usually 6 days out of 7, the only recreational expense might be the books I buy as I read a lot. Used to buy the bestseller paperbacks each week at Wal-Mart from $3.87 up to $5.89. Now I buy them at Dollar General where I also buy cleaning supplies, and laundry detergent. I also buy there Clover Valley Products....coffee (cannot tell the difference) Low Calorie Cookies (like Snackwells) Clover Valley oreo like cookies and their chocolate chip cookies and their graham crackers. O & they have strawberry fig newton bars which are great.

Living in a small town of 2,400 we are limited as we only have one grocery store, Harp's, & I can't stand the smell of the store. I will go to Dollar General & buy my stuff (the cookies, graham crackers, strawberry fig newton like bars) as that is what I eat when dh is on the road along with fat free frozen yogurt. Dollar General's wheat bread is much better than Harp's. The closest Wal Mart is 16 miles on way or 18 miles the other way. Hubby trys to go to Wal Mart every other weekend as he buys the groceries. Sometimes, I like to go with him, BUT, I know I slow him down ,as have to get my scooter out of the back of van, which I can do by myself, but I have a tendency to gawk at all the new items in the store. Hubby has a list and what he buys is on that list.

As for your food bill it definitely needs to be separated into OTC meds, Personal Hygiene Products, Household Items (laundry detergent, bounce, bleach etc.). Hopefully you've got a few receipts & know when you buy this stuff, so you will have a good idea of how to break it down or just use the National Standards list. Just don't lump it all into one category - Food.

Also, have you made a Spreadsheet of your Co-Pays, Out of Pocket Expenses, Prescriptions, etc. Take the total of all of them & divide it by 12. This is a Biggie for Us and know Trustee will question it. I have the bill from every doctor, dentist, etc on the bottom, the EOB from the insurance company, I copy by bank statements & cut out the appropriate check & tape it to the EOB & then staple it all together & add to spreadsheet.

If you are not familiar with a Spreadsheet, you need to look in your Program Files and see if you have Microsoft Works, Excel, Microsoft Money or whatever has a spreadsheet to it. I will help you & I'm sure DSIG will be glad to help you. If you have Excel, she can PM a month's worth of expenses & the formulas to derive at a yearly average.

Hmmm, it's 1:26 am. I need to get to bed.

Hugs,

Luci

As for the prescriptions, we've had so many, I gave up on trying to keep up with the cost. We are able to sign a piece of paper, make copy of our DLs & our pharmacists prints it out for us. I just paid some medical bills this month, but I do know our monthly expense will be over $1,000. Trustee wants to balk, all he has to do is look at our tax returns since year 2005 (accident 3/14/05) & it's noted on Schedule A Itemized Deductions. We are going to have to bankrupt some of the medical bills.

I think you need to delete your children's activities and recoup those expenses elsewhere like whatever business expenses on Schedule C, Policy,

Before you mail or deliver this to your Attorney, make Sure you have gone through all of Your Bank Statements & have everything listed. If in the past 12 mths. you were using your Credit Cards, go through their Statements also. If you accomplish the 2 above things, I think you will find enough expenses to take care of the $207 you've listed for your kids.

Again, filing bankruptcy is a Financial Decision and all emotions need to be left out of it. It doesn't mean your kids cannot continue, it just means you are going to have to reduce some things from your budget to allow them the extra cirrucular activities.

[backtoschool]

backtoschool...if you want I can fax you a copy of my bill..it is what it is...thats what it cost. Thats the DSL package that is available. I HAVE to have the phone with it..there is NO cheaper option..so the tt CAN'T dispute it.

tts do allow some for recreation..thats why there is a line for it. Did you put 0$ on yours? It costs my family $70 to go to the movies ONE TIME.

The cell phone is also the bill that I pay..maybe were not getting a great deal..but that is the bill each month. Once again, I do use it for work so maybe I can pull some of it towards my business expense..the tt did not even question the cell bill.

I do spend $1,200 at the store each month. This is food/cleaning/personal hygene/tylenol (and a lot of it...three just now in fact)/ toilet paper/ paper towels/dog food etc..everything...this is what is lumped into the 1,200. I don't think I have saved every receipt but the debits on my bank statements to walmart were not for Gucci purses and will prove these expenses. AND ONCE AGAIN..this is not above the allowable expense.

The 450 is not just a heating expense! It's electric and heat and I live in a very drafty house!!! I can prove it those expenses and once again...ALLOWABLE.

If you read my info correctly, then you would know that my case was continued because the tt wanted my deed of trust to my house, a written track record of the truck payments we are making to my in-laws and for us to fix some apparant duplications on our schedule J with our kid's activities. The tt said, and I quote "with these duplications it looks like you may have an extra 500 or so, and I doubt that is true."

I'm not sure why you are bullying me, but after I proved your calculations wrong on my allowed IRS expenses, you've found more to come at me with. Lets just move past this because you are honestly raising my stress level now. I wish you luck withh your upcoming 341 and I hope it goes smoother than mine did...it probably will because you seem to be an expert. Please please please, whoever is in charge please close this thread....

I am done commenting on your posts. I am not "coming at you". I have spent a lot of time trying to help you avoid a chapter 13. You have been nothing but defensive, and frankly have misquoted me on numerous occasions. I ignored all of this because I wanted to help you.

I feel for you, but I don't feel you are listening. If you think I am bullying you then wait until the trustee gets to you. I have been very sympathetic, but my last post was "tough love" to get you to see that your expenses are discretionary and will be used against you if you are not careful. You asked for help, and i was only trying to help you see things the way the trustee will see them.

The trustee did not just schedule a new meeting because of some typos. Be realistic.

[berrymom35]

Did I ever say I had it all figured out? I obviously don't, but I don't understand why I'm being told my bills are too high..when that is what they are..I can't change my utility bills etc...I'm simply not worried about these as I can prove them.

None of my statements of frustration were directed at your posts...I've had some that just won't stop with the same thing over and over.....I appreciate your concern...I'm concerned too!

I do think I'm done with this forum though...posting anyway...I think I learn more when I just lurk. I've never felt a lot of positiveness here...directed at me personally...I could just be imagining it...but I get a lot of negative responses and such...sorry if you took any sort of offense but it is very hard to work as hard as we work and to love my kids as much as I do and to not want to tell my 8 year old who loves football more than he loves breakfast, lunch and dinner that he will more than likely have to turn in his pads before the first game as much as I don't...and to have to defend every dime I spend...it makes me want to step out in front of a bus. I'm sorry but most of these posts have not been kind or understanding! I feel like I've been beat up!

[bkmaggster]

We are trying to HELP you. You asked for OPINIONS, and you got quite a few of them.

If you have it all figured out - why are you asking us for help?

I think what you perceive as bullying is actually quality advice. People have been kind and understanding, IMO.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have been responding to you because I am genuinely worried for you. I hope your continuance goes smoothly, and I won't comment further.

[berrymom35]

backtoschool...if you want I can fax you a copy of my bill..it is what it is...thats what it cost. Thats the DSL package that is available. I HAVE to have the phone with it..there is NO cheaper option..so the tt CAN'T dispute it.

tts do allow some for recreation..thats why there is a line for it. Did you put 0$ on yours? It costs my family $70 to go to the movies ONE TIME.

The cell phone is also the bill that I pay..maybe were not getting a great deal..but that is the bill each month. Once again, I do use it for work so maybe I can pull some of it towards my business expense..the tt did not even question the cell bill.

I do spend $1,200 at the store each month. This is food/cleaning/personal hygene/tylenol (and a lot of it...three just now in fact)/ toilet paper/ paper towels/dog food etc..everything...this is what is lumped into the 1,200. I don't think I have saved every receipt but the debits on my bank statements to walmart were not for Gucci purses and will prove these expenses. AND ONCE AGAIN..this is not above the allowable expense.

The 450 is not just a heating expense! It's electric and heat and I live in a very drafty house!!! I can prove it those expenses and once again...ALLOWABLE.

If you read my info correctly, then you would know that my case was continued because the tt wanted my deed of trust to my house, a written track record of the truck payments we are making to my in-laws and for us to fix some apparant duplications on our schedule J with our kid's activities. The tt said, and I quote "with these duplications it looks like you may have an extra 500 or so, and I doubt that is true."

I'm not sure why you are bullying me, but after I proved your calculations wrong on my allowed IRS expenses, you've found more to come at me with. Lets just move past this because you are honestly raising my stress level now. I wish you luck withh your upcoming 341 and I hope it goes smoother than mine did...it probably will because you seem to be an expert. Please please please, whoever is in charge please close this thread....

[mamaluv]

I was going to say the internet/phone seems a bit high as well....my DSL/phone bill is only $52 a month. Same for cable...I am wondering what kind of package do you have that costs $90?

[backtoschool]

Okay..so I redid my schedule J expenses...could you guys please take a look at them and tell me what you think?

Mortgage: 688.95
Electricity/gas: 450.0
Water and sewer: 60
Telephone and Internet: 130
Cellphones (3): 240.00
Cable: 90.00
Trash: 20
Home maintenance: 75
Food: 1200.00
Clothing: 200.00
Laundry/dry cleaning: 50.00
Medical/dental: 200.00
Transportaion: 500.00 (we commute)
Recreation: 150.00
Home Insurance: 58.33
Life Insurance: 77
Car Insurance: 79
Taxes (personal property/house/self employment): 250.00
Auto: 264
80
Son's (2) activities: 105 (karate/football/baseball)
Daughter's activities: 102 (competitve cheer)
Preschool: 100
Business: 50 (office supplies)
School lunches: 40
Personal Hygene/hair-cuts/highlights: 85

the hair stipen, lunches, food clothes, laundry...should be lumped into the $1600+ I'm allowed per IRS standards right?

Please let me know any thoughts on this new schedule!

Here is what the trustee is going to not like:

Internet/phone: You have 130 for this. A bundle should cost about 60 or 70 dollars. Trustee gets 60 dollars towards a chap 13 plan here.

cable 90 dollars: basic cable costs 50 dollars. The trustee gets 40 dollars towards a chap 13 plan here.

Competitive cheer: Totally discretionary. The trustee gets 105 dollars towards a plan here.

Recreation 150. Totally discretionary. The trustee takes 50 dollars of this towards a plan.

food 1200: too high. The trustee will take about 300 dollars of this to fund your chap 13 plan.

Cellphones 240. Too high. The trustee will take 100 of this to fund your chap 13 plan.

So, without touching the transportation expense and the 450 dollar heating expense, the trustee has come up with 655 dollars a month to fund a chapter 13 plan.

Of course this is a hypothetical example, but is not far off from what other trustees have done in other examples on this forum.

The way you have your expenses now will trigger a bunch of red flags for the trustee and that trustee could possibly either dismiss your petition or put you into a chap 13. Of course I don't know this is going to happen, but you have to have another meeting, which is not a good sign.