New Schedule J..please look and give opinions

[berrymom35]

backtoschool: I do appreciate your trying to help, but I am within the guidelines. 1200 for food/cleaning supplies/tp and such + 200 for clothes +50 for laundry + 85 for hair cuts + 40 for school lunches = 1,575, which is less than the allowable expenses for all of those things combined! Also, I don't know your situation and how much over the median you are...but we "gave up" our secured debt because our atty told us it was hard to justify a chapter 7 when we were driving a new car and living in a 250,000 house. I don't think it should be allowed to keep all your "stuff" and slide by claiming those payments...but whatever

Lucilus: I don't own a business..I'm a contract writer. I write marketing materials. I type and type and print and print and mail stuff...so I use a lot of ink, postage and paper. I just don't see what I could use as business expenses unless it's part of the cell phone....I do think that I should be able to use all of my self employment taxes though...

hereforinfo: that $500 is for transportation expenses..gas, oil changes, tires, wiper fluid, meters, repairs. My dh takes a lot of call and this means that often on a weekend he drives that communte back and forth up to 7 times, he fills his tank at least twice a week for $35 a shot. I fill mine once and then still put $20 to get me by the rest of the week. The tt did not question this and even mentioned that we drive older cars and therefore that expense is justified.

One poster mentioned pay movie channels...we had a six month free showtime once..but that ended and we did not continue it...thats it. I did have to buy a washer and dryer because the set I got for my wedding 13 years ago finally gave out...I had to get it at rent a center because I don't have the extra cash to buy any outright. I got a used set and pay $26 a week for them. My dh was too embarassed to tell the tt this, also we did it after we filed..... I have not even had the money to buy my kids new school shoes and school starts Monday for us...my daughter's birthday is Saturday and she will have no party for her and her little friends. She will barely get a gift. My kids know things are tight and I'm really not having a pitty party...but we gave up all of our "things"...so we could qualify for 7 and have a new start. We are 1000 under the median per month...I'm sorry, but it should not be this hard.

I know the trustee is no my friend...I'm not stupid. My flaw was trusting my atty to have my back when filling out my schedules...to alert me to anything that would cause a red flag..to speak at the 341...she can't even find the time to meet with us now to go over everything and try to fix it. I can't afford another attorney..we gave her our school clothes money to assure her attendance at our 341....what a waste....I'm wondering if I can contact the tt and talk about our atty issue?

[hereforinfo]

Oh, the 500 is what is allowed in our state..both our vehicles are 10+ years old and there is some expenditure that allows so much per vehicle that are that old...my husband commutes 50 miles each way three days per week and I communte 120 miles each way one day per week...We each easily spend $60 per week in gas, so our actual expenditures are over 500 if you factor in the alternator that went out last month in my van and the tie rod ends my husband had to replace month before last on his truck....

Also, about our phone situation. We have to have a home phone line in order to have internet...because all we have available to us is DSL..so we have to keep the phone line...the internet is $50 and the phone line is $80.....We have three cell phones and I use mine for business calls....which I deduct from my taxes...we have an unlimited plan along with unlimited texting (kids) and the actual monthly rate is $191...add a few calls to 411 here and there and then taxes and fees it gets boosted up to at least $240

For commuting the two of you total 540 miles per week. If you figure 17 miles per gallon @ 3.20 per gallon, that's only $108. Obviously you need to drive for personal use as well, but realistically you are not putting on another 1500 miles a week around town.

[UhhhOhhh]

I have stuck to the IRS guidelines...vehicle expenses, food/clothes/personals, utilities, mortgate, medical...everything is within guidelines......so I'm not sure what all the posts about sticking to the guidelines are about. The only thing I have that is above and beyond is my children's activities..and it's not "texting" it's football and dance classes...and my husband already works two jobs..and I do as much work as I can being self employed..if were pushed into a 13 anyway....I could get four jobs and all that extra money won't go to my family it would end up going to the creditors once the tt found out we were making even a dollar more per day....

I've seen people on here try and justify being thousands over the median...and get by with a 7..I'd like to know what kind of expenses those people had that were considered "legal", if they were making that much money. We gave up our house, car, everything to do a seven and we are way under the median. What if this month we have no medical expenses but next mont we have a lot? That extra money should be in our budget in case we need it...that is why the allowances are there...you should not necessarily use that 300 for medical each month, but it should be there in case you need it. If the tt takes every extra dime from us what happens if the alternator goes out on my van? or the transmission out on my husbands truck? Well, thats when the extra vehicle expenses should come in handy. My dh broke his arm in March..had to pay 200 at the ER...would not have had that if all our money was being paid out in a 13 plan...this is what is not fair..


and as for the creditors...they got everything they were owed in the thousands and thousands we paid to them and because of inflated interest our balances never went down...in fact, they were paid twice what they ever loaned us and I don't feel bad about it one single bit.........................................

BerryMom35 - Heres the thing... you are trying to be a GOOD and RESPONSIBLE person (parent/wife) and look at the 'what ifs' down the road. The problem is that when you file bankruptcy the courts DO NOT CARE about the 'what ifs' down the road. What they care about is HOW MUCH you have above and beyond BASIC NECESSITIES (food/heat/roof/clothes) that can be used to pay back the creditors.
What everyone on the board is trying to explain is that whilst we all TOTALLY understand where you are coming from... and why you feel the way you do - we are really concerned that you are digging yourself into a hole further. You honestly need to readjust your thinking and look at it from the creditors/courts viewpoint - with a verrrrrry skeptical eye. They are just SURE you are trying to hide assets... trying to screw the creditors... trying to pull one over on everyone by bailing out in a chapter 7... so they are going to scrutinize every single penny above and beyond the absolute necessary.
And while the allowances may be... $500 for gas...they will still look at how much you drive and how often and then ask for actual receipts showing that you spent that much (as an aside.. I commute 57 miles a day round trip for work 5 days a week - gas costs me $22 a week for a total of $88 a month so... looking at your gas expense amount for the two of you, it looks high... and the Trustee is going to do the exact same thing... she is going to look at what SHE spends on gas.. and run the calculations and is going to think 'wait a minute here'. Its human nature really to compare).
Ditto on the groceries. $1200 seems really high for food (Im a family of 4 and we spend about $700 a month on groceries) when you are also buying school lunches 5 days out of the week... which then negates the need for lunch stuff. The trustee is going to be thinking similarly.

What you need to do (as several of the other posters have said) is find OTHER catagories into which you can put THOSE expenses. Catagories that arent going to raise red flags for which the Trustee is going to ask for actual receipts. For instance... when you buy your groceries.. Im sure you put TP and advil and deoderant etc into the basket.. thats not food.. thats health. Or.... Im sure that (as someone said) a big chunk of your cell phone bill is business NOT 'family cell'.
As another aside... here all the companies do 'bundles' so you can get home phone, internet, cable, cell phone as one bundle and you can SAVE a bundle. I dont do cable and I cut the cell phone down to almost nothing when I filed for bk cause I couldnt afford it all anymore... and I use a VOIP for home phone so between them all I pay a little over $150 a month now - whereas before separately they ran about $300 a month or more sometimes. See if your companies do that and look into it.

Anyway... Im sorry to run on so... but everyone really is trying to help.. but you have to see that while its not fair... its the way it works.. so sometimes you just have to go along to get along. And its just for a little while... you do what you have to.. even if its difficult... for the short term in order to be debt free in the long term.

[hereforinfo]

Our house is 1800 sq feet and those are actual numbers...this winter our electric bills were $250 and our Gas $200...we live in 100 year old house that is drafty...also, our state allows for $420 for utilities...the tt did not question this.

You need to look back over the previous year and add up your total payments, then divide by 12.

[LuciluS]

I feel for you berrymom35, and I don't want to scare you. The trustees are human beings and they don't want to make your kids suffer.

But.... they DO want to get you into a chapter 13 if there is any way possible. That is what they are paid to do. It's their job to try to get you into a chapter 13. If you have ANY expenses that they consider discretionary, they will take that money to fund a chapter 13 plan.

Here is what the trustee most likely would see as discretionary:

premium cable channels.
unlimited cell phone plan, versus pooled minutes plan where the kids cell phone numbers are 9.99 a month
expensive hobbies for you and your kids.
eating out as part of your food budget
a high entertainment budget
Internet bandwidth above the minimum (some service providers charge more per month for more bandwidth)

If those above discretionary items add up to over 100 month, presto you are in a chapter 13.

There are categories of expenses that can easily be backed with receipts and that are not discretionary that you do NOT have on your schedule right now but probably should.

car licenses, pet licenses, registration fees, etc.
all expenses related to your stay-at-home business, just like you claim it on your income taxes.
All insurance expenses including home, health, life, auto, disability, etc.
All expenses for doctors, dentists, optometrists, therapists, and all expenses for over the counter medicines such as advil, allergy medicine, antacids (for all of the stress lol), cough medicine etc. (break this out of your food bill and put it in your medical category).

Just some ideas....

Berrymom: Please stop spending your time on what's not fair in bankruptcy.
I was shocked to find out, even tho the IRS allows a certain % for over road truck drivers, The Bankruptcy Courts do Not! Must have receipts. Sweetie, we are only trying to help you and I know you are frustrated and part of it's not your fault due to the Attorney screwing up BUT that's in the Past.

You own a business. You have, as of yet, to show us any expenses on your business. What backtoschool states above is what you need to spend your time on. Pardon my French and Lord sorry, but the Trustees or the UST don't give a Damn about your kids. It's fact! May not be Fair BUT IT'S FACT! Move on and do the above.

That's just like I'm 100% disabled, but do you think I can claim a housekeeper in my Bankruptcy? NO! Hubby is a Cardiac Patient and rarely eats beef or pork. He eats Turkey and it's darn expensive. You think the Trustee cares? NO!

Please listen to us...we are only trying to help you!

Luci

[backtoschool]

Here are the IRS guidelines from the IRS website. I checked the US trustee website and the expenses are the same. These are the numbers that your trustee will be using.

National Standards: Food, Clothing and Other Items



National Standards have been established for five necessary expenses: food, housekeeping supplies, apparel and services, personal care products and services, and miscellaneous.

The standards are derived from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) Consumer Expenditure Survey (CES).

Taxpayers are allowed the total National Standards amount monthly for their family size, without questioning the amounts they actually spend. If the amount claimed is more than the total allowed by the National Standards, the taxpayer must provide documentation to substantiate those expenses are necessary living expenses. Generally, the total number of persons allowed for National Standards should be the same as those allowed as exemptions on the taxpayer’s most recent year income tax return.

Expense One Person Two Persons Three Persons Four Persons
Food $285 $537 $626 $752
Housekeeping
supplies $28 $66 $61 $74
Apparel &
services $86 $162 $209 $244
Personal care
products
& services $31 $55 $59 $65
Misc $87 $165 $197 $235
TOTAL $517 $985 $1,152 $1,370


More than four persons Additional Persons Amount
For each additional person, add to four-person total allowance: $262

So, you would be allowed 1,370 plus 262, which is 1632 TOTAL.

You are over that in what you have been claiming. Anything over will be put into a chapter 13 plan unless you can convince the trustee that it was a necessary and reasonable expense and can document it with receipts. And even then the trustee might not accept anything over $1632 a month.

[LSUTiger32]

I have stuck to the IRS guidelines...vehicle expenses, food/clothes/personals, utilities, mortgate, medical...everything is within guidelines......so I'm not sure what all the posts about sticking to the guidelines are about.

I am trying to help you, why the sourness? I am just saying, $1,200 for food is not going to fly unless you have a family of about 8. I know you lowered it some but for me $1,370 was all I could do for clothing, food, personal expenses, etc.

The only thing I have that is above and beyond is my children's activities..and it's not "texting" it's football and dance classes...

Again, I and others are trying to make you see that no one except you that is involved in your BK care about your son playing football and your daughters dance classes. Those are not NECESSARY expenses. They may be to you, but to the creditors that want to get paid, they could care less. I am just trying to explain to you that for that reason I did not include any of that stuff.

I've seen people on here try and justify being thousands over the median...and get by with a 7..I'd like to know what kind of expenses those people had that were considered "legal", if they were making that much money.

A lot of the time it is on secured debt which is my case.

We gave up our house, car, everything to do a seven and we are way under the median. What if this month we have no medical expenses but next mont we have a lot? That extra money should be in our budget in case we need it...that is why the allowances are there...you should not necessarily use that 300 for medical each month, but it should be there in case you need it. If the tt takes every extra dime from us what happens if the alternator goes out on my van? or the transmission out on my husbands truck? Well, thats when the extra vehicle expenses should come in handy. My dh broke his arm in March..had to pay 200 at the ER...would not have had that if all our money was being paid out in a 13 plan...this is what is not fair...

You are way over thinking this. They don't care about what might happen to you in three years. Life isn't fair, so stop expecting things to be fair.

and as for the creditors...they got everything they were owed in the thousands and thousands we paid to them and because of inflated interest our balances never went down...in fact, they were paid twice what they ever loaned us and I don't feel bad about it one single bit.........................................

I don't suggest feeling bad about it, but no....your nor my creditors got what they were owed. We signed up for an agreement that allowed them to do what they do to us. We have no one to blame but overselves.

[backtoschool]

I have stuck to the IRS guidelines...vehicle expenses, food/clothes/personals, utilities, mortgate, medical...everything is within guidelines......so I'm not sure what all the posts about sticking to the guidelines are about. The only thing I have that is above and beyond is my children's activities..and it's not "texting" it's football and dance classes...and my husband already works two jobs..and I do as much work as I can being self employed..if were pushed into a 13 anyway....I could get four jobs and all that extra money won't go to my family it would end up going to the creditors once the tt found out we were making even a dollar more per day....

I've seen people on here try and justify being thousands over the median...and get by with a 7..I'd like to know what kind of expenses those people had that were considered "legal", if they were making that much money. We gave up our house, car, everything to do a seven and we are way under the median. What if this month we have no medical expenses but next mont we have a lot? That extra money should be in our budget in case we need it...that is why the allowances are there...you should not necessarily use that 300 for medical each month, but it should be there in case you need it. If the tt takes every extra dime from us what happens if the alternator goes out on my van? or the transmission out on my husbands truck? Well, thats when the extra vehicle expenses should come in handy. My dh broke his arm in March..had to pay 200 at the ER...would not have had that if all our money was being paid out in a 13 plan...this is what is not fair..


and as for the creditors...they got everything they were owed in the thousands and thousands we paid to them and because of inflated interest our balances never went down...in fact, they were paid twice what they ever loaned us and I don't feel bad about it one single bit.........................................

[berrymom35]

I have stuck to the IRS guidelines...vehicle expenses, food/clothes/personals, utilities, mortgate, medical...everything is within guidelines......so I'm not sure what all the posts about sticking to the guidelines are about. The only thing I have that is above and beyond is my children's activities..and it's not "texting" it's football and dance classes...and my husband already works two jobs..and I do as much work as I can being self employed..if were pushed into a 13 anyway....I could get four jobs and all that extra money won't go to my family it would end up going to the creditors once the tt found out we were making even a dollar more per day....

I've seen people on here try and justify being thousands over the median...and get by with a 7..I'd like to know what kind of expenses those people had that were considered "legal", if they were making that much money. We gave up our house, car, everything to do a seven and we are way under the median. What if this month we have no medical expenses but next mont we have a lot? That extra money should be in our budget in case we need it...that is why the allowances are there...you should not necessarily use that 300 for medical each month, but it should be there in case you need it. If the tt takes every extra dime from us what happens if the alternator goes out on my van? or the transmission out on my husbands truck? Well, thats when the extra vehicle expenses should come in handy. My dh broke his arm in March..had to pay 200 at the ER...would not have had that if all our money was being paid out in a 13 plan...this is what is not fair..


and as for the creditors...they got everything they were owed in the thousands and thousands we paid to them and because of inflated interest our balances never went down...in fact, they were paid twice what they ever loaned us and I don't feel bad about it one single bit.........................................

[LSUTiger32]

Very little of what my attorney did on my schedule veered away from the IRS allowances. We did the $1,370 for food, clothing, etc., the $489 for two vehicles in Louisiana, the standard allowance for utilites which was just under $500. I mean I have a 2700 square foot house so if that covers me it should cover you. I have $400 energy bills in the summer but the gas bill is next to nothing. In the winter I might have a $150 gas bill but the energy bill is about the same. I never spend more than $450-500 a month on utilities including water.

We are all just trying to help. I would stick to the IRS deductions as much as possible unless you can seriously and strongly document something different. I never included anything my kids do as expenses because that is way to easy to hit me on.

[jribe]

to the OP:
Please remember that the trustee's job is to find assets and get money for the creditors. They honestly don't care if you have money left over for entertainment or your kids' activities. They actually get a percentage (as a fee) of the amount recovered and partial from ch 13 payments.

I know you don't think this is "fair" but it's not about what's "fair" and what's not.

You need to look at this from the creditors standpoint as well. The trustee is on their side; and if he/she feels that your expenses have too much for discretionary they will cut them out.

If you have more than $125 disposable (per the trustee) you can go into a ch 13.

[bkmaggster]

So at a typical 341 meeting, the trustee will look over the expense schedule and will ask questions about this item and that item.

Nope. Typically this will only happen if the expenses are discretionary or fall outside of the IRS guidelines.

Do a board search on "required trustee questions" to see the required questions the trustee usually asks.

[ForumReader]

Thanks. That helps to understand better. My lawyer said I qualified for Ch 7 and did not go into details how a CH 13 would work if the trustee tried to wiggle for a CH 13 so I gave a scenario to see if I can understand this better why the trustee would go for a CH 13 when the petitioner has very little money to work with. So at a typical 341 meeting, the trustee will look over the expense schedule and will ask questions about this item and that item. If the trustee is not satisfied with the expense schedule, a 341 meeting is rescheduled or extended?

[backtoschool]

There are 10% chapter 13 plans. In your example, 10% of the 80,000 debt payed back over 5 years would equal $133.00 a month, which would be an acceptable chap 13 plan.

The OP has a LOT of discretionary expenses that could go into that plan if the trustee chooses to go the chap 13 route. If those expenses are not changed on the schedules it is possible that the trustee would put several hundred dollars a month towards a plan in the OP's case.

Of course I am not the trustee so I have no idea what would really happen.

But your scenario could lead to a chap 13 plan in some cases.

[Tbornetun]

The amount of debt does not determine whether or not it should be a Chapter 13. It is the disposable income. Even if the creditors get $5 a piece, it is more than they will receive in the creditors would receive in a Chapter 7. She could have $150,000 in debt and it still wouldn't make a difference. If the disposable income is there, the trustee is going to push for a 13 or dismiss.